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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Last November, bought a what I thought to be a very nice 1965 Code "J" Rangoon Red Convertible "clone" GT with white top, white stripes and red deluxe (76B) interior code "65" and A-Code Engine that was fully restored in 1999 by the second owner (owned since 1975). He was a farmer who kept it in one of his steel buildings but decided he no longer could get in and out of it now in his late 70's, plus none of his heirs wanted it (iPads, iPhones, iPods and hybrids only seem to please some youngsters these days ... I guess).

Anyway, the price was right and I'm not sure the farmer (nor I) knew what we really had there. After shipment, I drove the car to a reputable Mustang restoration specialist in my area for some light cosmetic and mechanical cleanup work, and I initially told him it was probably clone GT.

I had a work list we reviewed including the addition of a low profile reproduction rally pack, petronix igniton, etc. The business owner calls me the next day after he got around to looking closely at the car and excitedly told me it was a true factory GT from checking the rear original frame rail internals, the wiring on the fog and tail lights, finding additional support plates under the rear seat for the dual exhausts plus a number of other things that I can not fully remember off-hand.

So now, I'm trying to do some estimating using the widely published production number of 5338 1965 Convertibles built with 76B Pony interiors since that option was first offered (assuming intial production of 1965 Pony interiors started in February 1965 and ended in August 1965 .... also the same time frame for the 1965 GT option package). I realize the more detailed actual production records were destroyed for 65/66 but with a little bit of effort I come up with arithmetic that implies the car could possibly be one of about only 30 to 40 1965 Rangoon Red true factory GT Convertibles with "65" code red Pony Interior, (assuing about 12% were ordered in code "J' Rangoon Red exterior) and that around 5% of all cars built from Feb65 to Aug65 were ordered with the GT option. BTW, it also has 1965 one-piece original styled steel wheels (rally wheels) and a power top so, I'm not sure how those would fit into the arithmetic estimate. I'm assuming that 80% of all ragtops were ordered power tops.

Besides the GT and power top option, it only has the automatic transmission, padded visors, deluxe seat belts w/retractors and tinted windshield options. No power steering, no power brakes and no A/C.

The original door plate codes match with a "J" Rangoon Red exterior color code and a "65" red deluxe pony interior code plus a build date of mid-May 1965. Transmission and rear axle codes also match. I'm told all the equipment is either Ford original or Ford NOS (the fenders, rear quarters, GT lights, GT Grill, etc). Up on the rack, the shop also confirmed the closer turing ratio of the GT option by turning the wheels and counting revolutions.

The shop also pulled outward the the front fenders a bit and found some hidden serial numbers on each side of the engine bay that match the visible stamped S/N on the driver's side apron and the door tag. He removed the valve covers and a big number "65" is cast on them plus they are absolutely clean thus reflecting the 1999 engine's rebuild during restoration.

So here is my arithmetic logic summed up .... please jump in to correct me as needed because I'm sure I've fouled something up:
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1965 76B Convertibles built: 5338

GT Package: 5% of all cars and body styles built (Feb65 - Aug65)

Rangoon Red Production: About 12%

Red 76B Code "65" Deluxe Conv interior: ?? I Assumed 50%

Styled Steel Wheels Option: ?? I Assumed 75% when ordered with GT packages

Automatic Transmission: ?? 75%

No power steering with Automatic Transmission: ?? 50%

Power Top: ?? I Assumed 80% of all Convertibles built
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5338 x (5% GTs) = 267

267 x (12% Rangoon Red Exterior) = 32

32 x (50% Red Deluxe 76B code "65" Interior) = 16

16 x (75% Styled Steel Wheels Option) = 12

12 x (75% Auto Transmission) = 9

9 x (50% No Power Steering w/Auto Trans) = 5 (rounded up)

5 x (80% Power Top Option) = 4 units

Multiply the resultant 4 units by 8 or 10 to be conservitive = about 32 to 40 units?

Reasonable logic or am I all wet here? Free to hammer me if I made a big mistake.

Thanks! :cheers:
 

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Your math may be fine, but its just that... math...

The reality is certain options were more popular on certain models. An example, '67 S codes, ~6% of production:

Hardtops in '67 were 75% of production, fastbacks 15% convertibles 10%.

Yet in S codes 65% went into fastbacks, 26% into coupes and 9% into convertibles. So if one had no Marti data and assumed 6% of fastbacks got S code you are way off. Would one guess 10x that?

For GT options similar numbers, the vast majority were fastbacks, so any ratio on total numbers falls over. Fastbacks and convertibles were likely higher totals than the average, as the vast majority of coupes were not GT's and the 5% came mostly from the other two body styles (at least based on Marti's 67 and later numbers). So your 5% of convertibles is probably low. Same with styled steel wheels. More likely on fastbacks and convertibles, based on the later year numbers.

Assuming x% of option y got option z as well is just that... Combining base percentages is fine if you are talking random numbers like rolling dice, the odds are the odds, but when you look at the human factor and popularity of options and how folks mixed-and-matched it gets more complicated.

Sounds like a great car, Just be happy for what it is. One of a very few... those in the know will appreciate it, those not wouldn't care if it was a "one of one"... like a '67 T code coupe with a Falcon 3 speed, really "rare" but...would it impress you if the owner said one-of-one (which they all probably are)???

Enjoy it for what it is.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Thanks dalorzof .... I understand and truly appreciate the basics of what you are trying to say. Being a retired Mechanical Engineer of 40 years in the industry, I was simply curious on a rainy idle day out here on the U.S. West Coast.

Applying some of the logic seen from the 67/68 data, we could take the total 15,079 GT packages sold on the late 65's builds (of all body styles) from Feb65 to Aug65 and allocate 35% to convertibles, 50% to fastbacks and just 15% to coupes during that 6 months of production for each body style in late 1965. Remember, this was before Steve McQueen and his 1967 FB Bullet scene through the streets of S.F.

Approximately all 77,000 1965 fastbacks were built from Feb65 to Aug65 with only about 5776 having the 63B decor group (Pony Interior). Assuming that 50% of those 5776 1965 Fastbacks were GTs by reasonably extrapolating as best we can an apples-to-oranges Steve McQueen Bullet 67/68 data comparison, then we would get about 2900 factory 1965 GT Fastbacks with the 63B Pony Interior. If (and of course this is a big uncertain "if"), these 2900 FB units were painted Rangoon Red at the normally acknowledged 1965 color popularity rate of nearly 12%, you'd get around 350 Rangoon Red 1965 FB GTs w/ Pony Interior. Further apply a 25% factor to the choice of an all red interior (probably too high, but let's use it anyway) and we end up with about 80 units. Factor in that 80% were probably ordered the styled steel wheels and you are already down to just 65 FB GT units in Rangoon Red with the 63B all red Pony interior and Rally Wheels.

To me that sounds mathematically reasonable for a 1965 Rangoon Red-on-Red FB GT with rally wheels and 63B Pony Interior .... about 65 factory units (w/o any further break down as to transmission or K-code engine or power steering or A/C, etc.)

Take the same approach to true 1965 convertibles of which about 72,000 were built from August64 to August65 with only 5338 built from Feb65 to Aug65 with the 76B Pony Interior. Reasonably assume the same things I used for the fastback analysis above that 35% of the 5338 Pony Interior convertibles were ordered with the GT package and we get 1870 units. Again, applying the popularity of Rangoon Red to the convertible of 12% ... No, wait, lets up that to 20% because more customers would want a red convertible ..... we come up with about 375 1965 GT convertibles in Rangoon Red with Pony Interior. Then apply the all red interior option at a more generous 35% to yield about 130 units. Factor in an 80% rally wheel option and we get about 100 1965 Convertible GT units with the 76B all red Pony Interior and rally wheels.

Once again, to me that sounds mathematically reasonable for a 1965 Rangoon Red-on-Red Conv GT with rally wheels and 76B Pony Interior .... about 100 factory units.

Finally, for further break down, let's reasonably assume that about 85% of the a 1965 convertible customers ordered the automatic transmission and 50% went with Power Steering and we end up with about 42 units ..... which comes pretty close to my original calculations.

Just a reminder that we are only talking late build 1965 GTs here and not 1966 builds, which had higher GT levels due to full year availability throughout 1966. Plus, we are dealing with the pre-Steve McQueen 1967 FB era which no doubt somewhat skewed 67/68 customer preferences to some degree.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
UPDATE:

A Mustang Club of America member just called and said do not add the Petronix Ingnition as he has an Original Ford late 65 low profile Rally Pack (with the Ford Logo correct for the Mustang). It can be easily refurbished and painted the bright red matching interior color. The original Rally Packs typically do not work with the Petronix Ingitions systems and the reproduction units do not have the Ford Logo plus require an extra wire running out through the firewall to the distributor coil. He gave me an excellent price on it.

Factor in a true original Rally Pack at a 25% optioned rate and we end up with maybe 1 out of 10 cars like mine ever delivered .... and that's according senior club members that I've shown or described the car to in Seattle, Portland, SF and LA.

At $19K, I think I may have stumbled onto a bargain, even factoring in the shipping, inspection, cosmetic clean-up, Rally Pack, etc .... $26K all-in. My poor mint Nassau Blue 1965 FI Corvette Conv (owned since 1975) will be getting jealous parked next to the Mustang eventually. My kids and grandchildren may never really appreciate the two cars, but I certainly will over the next 20 or 30 years!



 

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Math???

I wonder how that would have factored into the 65 K GT Convert I had in Twilight Turquoise w/ aqua & white pony int, 8 K Rally Pac, factory AM-FM, and SS wheels?? I always heard there were about 151 K GT converts made +/-, so how many were turq??
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I wonder how that would have factored into the 65 K GT Convert I had in Twilight Turquoise w/ aqua & white pony int, 8 K Rally Pac, factory AM-FM, and SS wheels?? I always heard there were about 151 K GT converts made +/-, so how many were turq??
Just a guess ..... being the rarest color in 65 at only 0.5% of overall production .... maybe one or two?

I gather by your use of the word "had" means it is sadly no more in your hands. :(
 

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I realize the desire to have a "1 of 1" car but it really doesn't matter on a car like this. They built thousands of this motor/tranny car with the GT option and those factors are what really matter when it comes to price. The A code motor is nice but it is not like it adds 50% to the value of the car.

It is all just a guess but if it makes you feel better that you have a unique or almost unique car then you probably do so there you go.
 

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Ford's 1965 production records are destroyed/lost, so no matter how reasonable it is all just guessing. Even your starting point of "1965 76B Convertibles built: 5338" is just someone's guess.

In the end it is most likely a factory GT in a fun color. Just enjoy it.

John Harvey
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Ford's 1965 production records are destroyed/lost, so no matter how reasonable it is all just guessing. Even your starting point of "1965 76B Convertibles built: 5338" is just someone's guess.

In the end it is most likely a factory GT in a fun color. Just enjoy it.

John Harvey
Your point is well taken about just enjoying the car.

However, some records did survive ..... but only the very basic ones like at the following link (which matches many other links with the same info) .... the 5338 number is pretty solid according to a fellow Mechanical Engineer that worked for Ford until his retirement. He said it was the more detailed records, including Serial Numbers that were deleted .... where you'd find exactly what came with each S/N:

1965 Mustang Production Numbers

Mid-60's Corvette owners are in the same boat regarding records by S/N until they started gluing build sheets on top of the gas tanks in 1967.
 
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