Vintage Mustang Forums banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of this month's Ride of the Month Challenge!

41 - 60 of 67 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Sounds nice. Love the exhaust work.
Thanks! I'm pretty happy with how it all turned out given what I had to work with. I was honestly surprised how well those Flow-FX do in terms of actually...well...quieting things down LOL. They're basically a straight through muffler so I had my reservations. If they're not enough though, I think "plan C" is going to be add some smaller neighbor haters in-line before the exits (there's enough room basically under the rear seat pan) or if that's still not enough then I can always exit out the back just so they point away from the sound meters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #44 ·
This is a track car right?
Correct. I know each track has different levels but I think most of them here in the southeast do not or are very high. Local SCCA has a "within reasonable" limit that they are willing to work with you on, this would be fine for that. From what I've been able to find, Road ATL is 98, CMP is 100 after 6pm, Reobling I think is 103, etc. Most of these I'm not too worried about. I'll also have ample time to test locally here at some AutoX events and see what my noise levels actually are but I didn't want to put all the work in and then have to drastically change things just to meet sound.
 

·
Spammer Hammer
Joined
·
10,833 Posts
The only one I’ve heard of actually enforcing it is AMP. I think theirs is 95db. CMP, RA, Roebling, Barber...none of these seem to care.

My car is headers, through the X, out the side.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
488 Posts
Exactly I love my cars sound but my local track is right next to a golf course and they forced the track to establish a dbs sensor so everyone has to slowe down on turn 4 especially the bikes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #47 · (Edited)
At this point I'm pretty well caught up with present day. There's a few more major things that I need to do before the car is "done" enough to take to an event. I'm at the "last 10% takes 90% of the time" point in the project. The major items I need to do yet:
  • wiring
  • rollcage
  • finish panhard fab
  • front and rear windscreens
  • fit and finish (spanner check, make sure things are fastened down, etc.)
For the rollcage I'm still poking around locally to find someone to do one. As of time of posting usually what I would call a "nice" 6-point is in the $3,000-$5,000 range, depending on who's making it. I've got a few places picked out but still want to go talk to the fellas doing the work and get a feel for things. In the meantime, I've got two major sinks that are taking up my time and those are wiring and secret project #2. I'll get into detailing some more about #2 this weekend I think. Last few parts came in to complete the CAD work I need to do with it and I'm honestly pretty excited about it.

In the meantime I'm doing some work on wiring. There's a fair bit of planning to put into this but I've got everything laid out and once I start actually putting the loom together I'll start documenting some of that as well since it's kind of viewed as a "black art" by most lolol. In terms of wiring I had a couple options, I could make my own harness or use one of the pre-fabricated ones like American Autowire and Painless. I've used both on separate projects and they're great but there were a few things that I wanted to change or didn't need. Because of that, I opted to make my own harness. This is also something I've done before so it wasn't as daunting as maybe it is for others.

First thing I started with was planning everything out. The starting point was trying to figure out (at least as a first pass, these things always change) how i was going to sub-divide the wiring. I ended up with a main harness, rear chassis harness, front chassis harness, and engine harness. After that, I went through the OE schematics to get an idea of what I all needed or wanted for the existing wiring. I've got a few pages of this and i won't share all of them but I wanted to group all the important signals to each harness or sub-harness I was going to make.
PXL_20210408_140919160.jpg PXL_20210408_140732265.jpg PXL_20210408_140753531.jpg

After that I had the general idea of how everything was going to go together. The plan is to use a bulkhead connector at the firewall and then another at the rear trunk firewall to separate the harness. I still haven't decided if I'll use a single camlock at the firewall and then use a second in-line connector for the body harness or if I'll use two smaller or medium-ish sized bulkheads, one for the engine harness and one for the chassis harness. I'm leaning towards the latter but I'll have to see what I have for connectors and everything.

Something I haven't mentioned yet is what I'm all using for the materials and parts. The notable ones include Deutsch connectors for the make/break points and MIL W-22759 wire (unshielded mil-spec wiring). This is overkill for most folks but I really like both. I've never had a deutsch connector fail and they usually are pretty conservatively rated for what they can actually handle. The mil-spec wire has a different insulation on it and uses a "fluoropolymer" instead of a "polyvinyl" (PVC) plastic. If you've never used a mil-spec wire the best way i can describe the difference would be like comparing a nice SJOOW (service Jr) extension cable to the more plastic ones you'll find for cheaper. The largest difference is PVC is (i think, its been a while) rated to about 100*C where as most MIL-spec wiring is 200*C (there are differences so if your application requires a specific use M22759 will tell you all about it). For initial testing, I'll simply wire lace everything and then after any bodge wires or re-wiring I need to do, I'll loom and shrink-wrap everything.

If you're unfamiliar with the term, this is what "wire lacing" looks like. The actual "lacing" is the string connecting everything together. Its a form of not only keeping your wiring neat but also provides strain relief for the wire. Its generally not something done anymore unless you're in the aircraft industry.
790030


To control everything I also had a few options, the standard switch and relays or something a little more expensive like the motec/haltec/other PDM style control. I actually have quite a bit of experience with the latter but my wallet doesn't want to cry that much LOL. Something else I also have experience with though is PCBs (circuit boards), both through personal projects and past employment. Without getting too far into the weeds (again, just say the word and I certainly can lol) I'm using a Controller Area Network (CAN) bus to link a few different boards together. Most of you are at least familiar with this in the form of OBDII. I've got a couple different boards I'm working on now and have already made several test-revisions of. Most of these are getting finalized now with improved features and I'm planning on having them out for production by end of April 2021.
  • PDU/PDM - Powder distribution module
  • Keypad - Buttons for the driver to mash
  • Dashboard - Going to display all the sensor information (except RPM)
  • Blinker/Hazard controller - This one isn't linked to CAN and will function on its own
  • Sensor input - Takes all of the oil pressure, fuel level, etc. sensors and converts them onto CAN
  • RPM sensor - Takes a signal from the coil or ignition box and drives a simple set of LEDs to correlate RPM
And then also some additional non-critical modules to supplement:
  • Digital input - Will take an input from a tailshaft housing or wheelspeed sensor and convert to vehicle speed.
  • Datalogger - Primary reason why I'm doing all this work. Also has internal accelerometer/gyro
  • Wideband 02 - Drives the WB02 sensor and then also converts it to CAN for logging
  • Strain gauges - This gets really nerdy, but allows me to measure forces. Also converts to CAN for logging
  • K-type thermocouple - Has the drivers and amplifiers and also converts to CAN for logging
  • PC (USB) to CAN - Allows a laptop or other computer to talk to everything on the CAN bus for programming, monitoring, etc.
Here's some shots of the early prototypes I've done and have been using for testing code and circuit robustness:
IMG_20190626_185503.jpg PXL_20210408_141202213.jpg PXL_20210408_141240196.jpg 135761712_270802544473791_615817184193079358_n.png

There's some fun features that a couple of these have that I'll touch on. Generically though, each of them has some of the "Standard" features like reverse voltage protection, input protection, and other means to make things a little more robust. Here's a shot of some of the early testing I did. All of these (except the data logger) us an ATMEGA328p, or an arduino. This was some of the early prototyping with the current sensor unit and also writing some of the interface code. I currently have had most of the boards talking to one another successfully and will likely have a final set of PCBs soon.
IMG_20190626_194744.jpg

The PDU has 10 outputs in total; 4 are "high current" and can deliver 25A of drive. The remaining 6 are rated for 12A. Each has a programable circuit breaker, so the current draw is monitored and if one of the outputs is drawing more than programmed, it will trip and attempt to re-set the circuit. After 3-4 trip attempts it will lock out the circuit. The driver can attempt and override from the switch panel as the "finish the race" or "get it to service" mode with the understanding that may damage wiring, the controller, or whatever. Each output can be configured to be driven from a sensor input or button input.

The blinker module is pretty cool. This one is a stand-alone module that takes your left, right, hazard, and brake signal inputs and will drive the front markers and rear brake lights. Power for the whole thing is controlled by the standard ~12ish volts from all the switches. I went this route because I didn't want to use a blinker relay and all that other jazz.

The analog sensor input will take 4 different sensors and convert them all to CAN. I've got a mini-DIP on the back for a couple reasons. The sensors can either work with a 3-wire sensor (power, ground, signal) or with a resistive two-wire signal. The DIP switches on the back are for a "high gain" or "low gain" mode; basically they should cover any resistive style sensor out there. Some might need a different voltage divider so this makes it a little more modular instead of having to solder/desolder resistors all the time.

The dash is going to be used primarily for all my "slow-moving" information. Things like oil pressure, fuel level, vehicle speed, WB02 are all either non-critical or slow moving (as in the value doesn't change quickly like RPM). It'll take input from any of the sensors on the CAN bus and display the ones i want here. The RPM is going to be separate from this. Originally I had planned on using just a gauge from like Autometer or something but ~$200 for a rev-counter just seemed like a lot. the RPM input takes signal from the coil or IGN box and then will drive a set of 8 RGB LEDs. It'll have a green rev bar with a yellow/red around redline and then i have it flashing at the shift point. I can always buy a gauge and mount it if needed.

I know the PCBs all seem like overkill and they probably are. The harness is designed though that I can use plain automotive relays and fuse boxes if I decide (or need) to. Much of this is just because its something I know how to do and am interesting in. They likely won't be as feature-rich as one of the commercially available units but I'll also have significantly less cost in (not counting my development time). Per the BOMs I have, all the PCBs including manufacturing and component cost come to about a $600 total for a "full set". This post is already getting pretty long so I'll stop here. If anyone's interested in hearing more about one of these I can certainly give a little more detail and have no issues showing examples or explaining how it works. Otherwise I'll probably not saying anything else about these until I get everything wired and mounted in the car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Where are you located?
Charlotte, NC metro area. In some regards that makes it real convenient for a lot of this! I've got great access to things like raw materials because of the NASCAR presence here and in Mooresville. It also can be a burden though, in the example of the rollcage I've found a few guys I'd like to use but most of them are busy up to their gills. Lots of other dirt track and other racing in the area so it seems like most of the good fab shops have pretty consistent buisiness. I'll admit for the cage I haven't given it a LOT of priority yet, I want to make sure I've got the car in a good state before handing it off to the fabricator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Looks like you can do a lot of fabrication yourself from this thread. The guy that did mine in Birmingham, AL will sell his cages as a kit. All pre-bent ready to weld in. Specific to our cars.

Thanks for the resource, I'll have to check them out. How do you like your fitment, is it a full 6 point with a halo bar? The cage is something I've been giving a lot of thought to, and honestly its part of the reason I haven't put a lot of external effort towards it yet. This might be a little long-winded but in the interest of documentation and I'll list out the general pros and cons in my mind:

Pros (for doing it myself):
  • I know what the material cost is.
  • Finding the general rules/regulations/etc for landing pads, tube sizes, all of that is easy enough and there's actually quite a few guys around here that would be nice enough to at least give it a "once over" and make sure I wasn't under-sizing something before putting it in.
  • I can do the work here, at my own pace.
  • I feel confident enough in my welding skills that it's not a concern (in terms of building an unsafe cage).
  • Total cost. I can discount my time and I'm just in it for raw material.
Cons (against doing it myself):
  • Tool cost and space. Don't get me wrong I'd love a JD2 or similar bender. The cost isn't that bad but from what I've been able to find its going to be ~$800 or so for a bender plus a single die set. Usually then $200-250 per set of dies.
  • My space is also pretty limited. I've thought about putting in concrete anchors and then i can at least bolt/move the stand when I'm not using it. Even still I honestly don't think I have anywhere great to store it.
  • Fitment. I'm sure I could get the cage to fit "pretty good" but I'm not confident that I could get a nice tight fitting cage, which is a concern for me since I'm a gorilla.
  • This last one may be unfounded but, material loss. I've not done any bending before and even with all the tutorials, etc. i can find online there will be an obvious learning curve. My main concern is the main hoop, the halo, and the a-pillar down-tubes. The rest are all almost straight joins and I've done a fair bit of coping/fitting before.

That's when a pre-bent kit like you suggested comes in then as another option. Basically would be all the pros with none of the cons. The largest con that I have for this option is fitment. I've not talked with or seen the kit you've suggested, so this is a moot point for that, but very generally since most "kits" are usually generic, fitment isn't the greatest. So my thought there was "well if I'm going to have to spend the time to get it to fit right anyway, I may as well make one or have one made.

Overall my napkin math tells me:
  • Roughly $500-$700 in tube material cost depending on if im using 1020 or 4130 (respectively). I'd likely budget $1,000 for cost minimum to allow for incidentals
  • Another $100 or so for landing pad plates
  • As mentioned about ~$800 for a bender and single die. Also would likely budget $1,000 and that way i could also get a 1" die which would be my second most common use.
  • Cheapo dimple-die set ($100) and a HF 20T press ($170) which i admittedly was thinking of getting anyway (the press that is).
That puts about the total cost at (roughly) $2700 to build. Assuming that I'm going to spend $4500, the "cost in time" is about 30-40 hours. Additional bonus for having the tools now. Even if its not ideal I could "box them away" somewhere in an attic once they were done if space was a concern and I didn't use them much or it would be relatively easy to re-sell the bender. I could say that having the bender would open up opportunities for additional income but I honestly don't have the time right now so that's a wash. 🤷‍♀️

I think that's enough babbling for now lolol. I'm still not sure one way or another. Part of me really wants to build it but another part of me just "wants it done".
 

·
Spammer Hammer
Joined
·
10,833 Posts
I think the fit is great. Mine is actually a 8 point with additional cross to the rear down bars, foot bars, and yes full halo.

This might weigh into your decision, my cage cost $3500. However, he also did the seat structure and the fuel cell structure. I find peace in that price knowing it is a certified NASA/SCCA fabricated by a racer himself. The pride in his work is off the charts. It will pass any inspection I put it through.

I know many can and will say you can just buy a bolt in/weld in “kit” and do the same thing. Nope.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #53 · (Edited)
I think the fit is great. Mine is actually a 8 point with additional cross to the rear down bars, foot bars, and yes full halo.

This might weigh into your decision, my cage cost $3500. However, he also did the seat structure and the fuel cell structure. I find peace in that price knowing it is a certified NASA/SCCA fabricated by a racer himself. The pride in his work is off the charts. It will pass any inspection I put it through.

I know many can and will say you can just buy a bolt in/weld in “kit” and do the same thing. Nope.

That was something that I didn't list as a "con" (for doing it myself) but absolutely is on my radar as well. Like you said, there's no substitute if you find a good fabricator in knowing that you don't have to worry about the cage especially since it's protecting the meatbag that is the driver lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #55 ·
You’ve done some very impressive work.
Love the wire lacing.
Thanks! I don't have as much experience as some of the experimental home-builders but I did hang out around the airport a lot and had the chance to help out with other guy's projects and/or modifications and updates to one of ours. The things like wire lacing and safety wiring fasteners always made me groan as a younger fella but I'm happy now i learned them lolol. The first few automotive harnesses I did, I just went straight to braided sleeve and heat shrink. It never fails you'll end up having to change something or bodge something in and it is a PAAAAAAIN in the arse to try and get wire through that sleeve, usually just quicker to cut off and do-over. After that I learned real quick to use lacing instead. Even if it's not the final presentation its much easier to test and add in wires if needed. Also keeps me from slicing myself all over with zipties.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
363 Posts
I’d appreciate any info on the bulkhead connector through the firewall, including how you do the aluminum plate. I’m planning on deutsch as well for a mega squirt (sequential port injection) install on my 67 coupe but am a little unsure on which connectors I can get to fit there comfortably. I think a 35 pin will probably handle what I want, but have considered using several rectangular connectors to keep things tidy and maybe less unruly.

great build!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
I’d appreciate any info on the bulkhead connector through the firewall, including how you do the aluminum plate. I’m planning on deutsch as well for a mega squirt (sequential port injection) install on my 67 coupe but am a little unsure on which connectors I can get to fit there comfortably. I think a 35 pin will probably handle what I want, but have considered using several rectangular connectors to keep things tidy and maybe less unruly.

great build!
I used the Mega Squirt connector on my EFI system. I just put it right through the firewall. I did not use any Deutsch connectors, only Mega Squirt.
The second shot shows location but not all the way seated yet.

790512


790513
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #58 ·
I’d appreciate any info on the bulkhead connector through the firewall, including how you do the aluminum plate. I’m planning on deutsch as well for a mega squirt (sequential port injection) install on my 67 coupe but am a little unsure on which connectors I can get to fit there comfortably. I think a 35 pin will probably handle what I want, but have considered using several rectangular connectors to keep things tidy and maybe less unruly.
great build!
Thanks, and will do! I'm going to use a 12 or 14 GA AL plate the size of the HVAC blower hole. The existing mounting holes for the HVAC blower will get rivnuts and that will fasten the plate. For the connector I'm planning on using a HD30 connector in the 24-19 configuration. That will give me 6 size 12 pins (12-14 AWG) and then 13 size 16 pins (generally 16-20 AWG). The larger size 12 I'm going to use for headlights and fans, which are going to be my largest current draws. That would be enough pins to fit all my engine wiring and chassis wiring into one. If i use a single connector, I would have to include a second in-line connector for the chassis wiring. That would allow me to disconnect things at the firewall and leave the engine harness all attached if I need to diagnose or pull anything. I'm still toying with if I want to do two smaller connectors from the HD10 series family for that reason. The second in-line connector would be for chassis wiring only so any potential "failure points" would be relatively non-critical failures which is why I'm leaning towards just using the single connector.

I used the Mega Squirt connector on my EFI system. I just put it right through the firewall. I did not use any Deutsch connectors, only Mega Squirt.
The second shot shows location but not all the way seated yet.
Also an option. For anyone else following the Megasquirt bulkhead connector is a Delphi/Weatherpack style. 22 position and fits a 12AWG to 20AWG wire. AFAIK, that is the only solution weatherpack offers for a "compact" bulkhead (there are other with a higher pin count). Another for anyone looking are also any of the Amphenol connectors. Much like the deutsch connectors, there are quite a few configurations. Additionally, at the time of writing this, Deutsch and Amphenol are both owned by TE.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
363 Posts
Amphenol is serious stuff. You will pay for it and probably be forced to go through specialty companies or digi key to get it. I think last time I priced out some pins that I saw around work, they were about 5$ a piece (gold plated).

Edit: I see lots of reasonably priced amphenol stuff on buydeutsch.com. These may be their automotive product lines. Idk

I’m most curious about the best place to put something the size of the HD30 on the firewall. My car is not track only so I wanted a clean install. I was also hoping to keep it away from the exhaust as much as possible.

In regards to running power through the firewall, I don’t plan to do much of that. The 35 pin hd30 is mostly 20 gage. I put a fuse and relay box up front next to the radiator, so that handles all my power distribution.

Thanks for the feedback folks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Amphenol is serious stuff. You will pay for it and probably be forced to go through specialty companies or digi key to get it. I think last time I priced out some pins that I saw around work, they were about 5$ a piece (gold plated).

Edit: I see lots of reasonably priced amphenol stuff on buydeutsch.com. These may be their automotive product lines. Idk

I’m most curious about the best place to put something the size of the HD30 on the firewall. My car is not track only so I wanted a clean install. I was also hoping to keep it away from the exhaust as much as possible.

In regards to running power through the firewall, I don’t plan to do much of that. The 35 pin hd30 is mostly 20 gage. I put a fuse and relay box up front next to the radiator, so that handles all my power distribution.

Thanks for the feedback folks!
I wouldn't call Mouser/Digikey/Newark/Binder or any of the other big distributors a "specialty company" by any means. Maybe I'm just weird? I buy a lot of electronics stuff for other projects so maybe I have a different perspective. For the price on the pins, it also depends on what series connector you get, some of the deutsch pins can get up into the $0.8-$0.9 each for the standard lines. If you're talking about more than that it must have been something specialty. As an example, once you start getting into the "autosport" line those pins will run up into the $2 each price depending on the reseller. However we're way past anything hobbyist grade at that point and my meat claws are too cumbersome to deal with those small things anyway lolol. I don't mean this to rag on weatherpack but they are the more economic of all those I listed, there's no doubt about that. However performance wise I'll be real surprised if I ever have a deutsch connector fail. For anything "we" do around here though a properly terminated weatherpack is just fine.
 
41 - 60 of 67 Posts
Top