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Discussion Starter · #21 · (Edited)

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I noticed you linked the “XL” version of the T56. Was that to facilitate the Roaster Shop chassis or did you want the shifter further back?
Good catch, I probably need to change that
 

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Made some additional powertrain decisions this week. I had been going back and forth between 2 pedals and 3. It seems most new coyote builds have 2 pedals and the 10 speed auto. I have a V-10 M5 with SMG as my daily and as much as I absolutely love that car I wanted driving my mustang to feel different so I ended up going with a 6 speed Magnum XL with the 2.97 first and .63 final drive. Car will have a 3.73 rear end


I used the M5 for reference and these are the calculations I came to (assuming 245/45R17 tires)
2.66 (.80 final drive) would be 1734 RPM at 70
2.97 (.63 final drive) will be 2185 RPM at 70
M5 has a .83 final drive and 3.62 rear diff and hits 2500 RPM at 70 in 7th gear
2.66 (.80 final drive) would be 1982 RPM at 80
2.97 (.63 final drive) will be 2498 RPM at 80
M5 has a .83 final drive and 3.62 rear diff and hits 3000 RPM at 80 in 7th gear

So the 2.97/.63 transmission will cost me some fuel economy and 400-500 RPM at the top end but this build isn't about fuel economy. The M5 has taught me that when you have an engine that revs to 8000, 500 RPM at cruising speed is nothing to worry about (though I won't have comparable noise isolation in this car).

I will be trying to maximize space in the tunnel so I can accommodate the 10R80 or DCT down the line without cutting up the floor again. DCT is my dream but the $25K+ asking price for those is insane

Also ordered C&R Racing radiator with integral engine oil and power steering coolers

Also ended up ordering hydroboost pedal assembly, and master cylinder from Revology
Revology 67400 - Revology Manual Transmission Pedal Assembly for Coyote Engine Swap with Hydroboost

Car should go to dustless blasting tomorrow or early next week. Price is about the same and I hope the dustless blasting will be easier on the roof. As it is I already suspect I'm going to have to replace the passenger rear quarter and everything in front of the firewall.

Why do you want a 6-speed with 2 overdrive gears? Realistically this is a classic car with poor aerodynamics, 2 overdrive gears is a waste. You will simply never be going fast enough to make any real use of the 2nd overdrive gear. Yes, the v8 version of the MT-82 isn't any better in that regard(hey, at least the v6 MT-82 I use is actually superior in that it only has one overdrive gear) but the high first gear would allow you to run a much higher rear end gear in the 3.0-3.5 range instead of forcing you into 3.73s. If you ask me though, if you are going to swap away from the MT-82 you are better off going with a TKO 5-speed or even a Toploader 4-speed...you would gain more tunnel room and lose a worthless gear and the associated weight.

P.S. A funny fact..the ITBs I used to convert my engine are from the M5(or was it the M3 v8? cant remember, they are essentially the same spec with minor differences as far as ITBs)
 

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Why do you want a 6-speed with 2 overdrive gears? Realistically this is a classic car with poor aerodynamics, 2 overdrive gears is a waste. You will simply never be going fast enough to make any real use of the 2nd overdrive gear. Yes, the v8 version of the MT-82 isn't any better in that regard(hey, at least the v6 MT-82 I use is actually superior in that it only has one overdrive gear) but the high first gear would allow you to run a much higher rear end gear in the 3.0-3.5 range instead of forcing you into 3.73s. If you ask me though, if you are going to swap away from the MT-82 you are better off going with a TKO 5-speed or even a Toploader 4-speed...you would gain more tunnel room and lose a worthless gear and the associated weight.

P.S. A funny fact..the ITBs I used to convert my engine are from the M5(or was it the M3 v8? cant remember, they are essentially the same spec with minor differences as far as ITBs)
A waste? I like the idea of going on a road trip cruising at 75 @1800 rpm. Aren't MT82's made of glass?
 

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A waste? I like the idea of going on a road trip cruising at 75 @1800 rpm. Aren't MT82's made of glass?
You can accomplish that very well with one overdrive gear, no need for 2....and before you say that it leaves a huge gap to go from 1.0 to 0.63, the fact is if you spin the engine to 7000RPM 4th gear at 1.00 and a 3.25 rear end gear would net you 160MPH...so unless you drive faster than 160MPH having 2 overdrive gears is worthless in an engine that revs to 7k at least

And no, MT82s are NOT made of glass contrary to popular belief. They DO have a poor shifter setup with the shifter itself mounted to the body of the car instead of the transmission which causes possible shift misalignment as the engine torques. The other issue with the MT82 is the plastic hydraulic clutch line, upgrading to a braided stainless line helps a lot. Once you solve those issues with an aftermarket shifter and stainless line(possibly upgrading the clutch if you are shifting at high RPM) the problems go away...maybe not as strong as a T56, but not far off either. People not understanding the issues and trying to force shifts at high RPM is what destroys the synchros....no surprise when the trans is moving and the shifter is not.

I have of course addressed all those issues on mine(and a partially filled trans mount to further limit movement)....shifts smooth as butter now.
 
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Discussion Starter · #27 · (Edited)
Why do you want a 6-speed with 2 overdrive gears? Realistically this is a classic car with poor aerodynamics, 2 overdrive gears is a waste. You will simply never be going fast enough to make any real use of the 2nd overdrive gear. Yes, the v8 version of the MT-82 isn't any better in that regard(hey, at least the v6 MT-82 I use is actually superior in that it only has one overdrive gear) but the high first gear would allow you to run a much higher rear end gear in the 3.0-3.5 range instead of forcing you into 3.73s. If you ask me though, if you are going to swap away from the MT-82 you are better off going with a TKO 5-speed or even a Toploader 4-speed...you would gain more tunnel room and lose a worthless gear and the associated weight.

P.S. A funny fact..the ITBs I used to convert my engine are from the M5(or was it the M3 v8? cant remember, they are essentially the same spec with minor differences as far as ITBs)
The aluminator would melt a MT-82 (which I believe is only rated for 380 ft/lbs) but the TKX was an option because it is capable of handling 600 lb ft torque and 7,500 rpm shifts. However in my view the problem was if I ever wanted to sell the car, buyers wouldn't understand a 5-speed behind a ~580 HP engine that revs to 8K.

When putting together the driveline I'll admit I largely deferred to Ford engineers. Obviously the aerodynamics of this car are terrible compared to a modern car but given that the engine closely matches that of the GT350R I selected the 3.73 rear gears from the GT350R and the ratios of that car are
Gear Ratio1st2nd3rd4th5th6thReverse
3.252.231.611.241.000.632.95

I wanted the .80/.63 overdrive for both top end pulling power and 70+ mph cruising.

Honestly I thought all the 2.66 had a .50 final drive ... now I'm wondering if the 2.66 first gear would be more usable than 2.97. I cancelled my initial order and now I'm leaning toward the 2.66 with the .80/.63 final drive.

In first gear @6000 RPM 2.66 will be 44.98 mph
7000 will be 52.47 mph
7500 will be 56.22 mph
 

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I went with the below and a 3.70 rear. The T56 was the best choice for 500hp NA or my plan of a future SC and 700+
My 5.0 Aluminator is set up for 7800+ rpm as well.

TREMEC TUET 11010
  • Gear Ratios 2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1, .80, .63
  • 26 spline input, 31 spline output Shafts
  • Cable Release guide tube and pivot stud
  • Torque rated 700+ft/lb
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I went with the below and a 3.70 rear. The T56 was the best choice for 500hp NA or my plan of a future SC and 700+
My 5.0 Aluminator is set up for 7800+ rpm as well.

TREMEC TUET 11010
  • Gear Ratios 2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1, .80, .63
  • 26 spline input, 31 spline output Shafts
  • Cable Release guide tube and pivot stud
  • Torque rated 700+ft/lb
Yup, that is exactly where I am as well (although my future won't involve a SC but hopefully will involve a DCT)
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
Very nice,
Great radiator choice. Check out the “Improved Racing” remote oil filter and oil cooler thermostat assembly. It facilitates AN12 plumbing and ensures hi volume flow and plumbing to/from the C&R 11554. Also, I personally highly recommend “ANhosefittings.com” for your plumbing needs (Same raceflux fittings/hose as sold on improved racing). Pricing was very competitive when purchasing over certain $$ amounts and their lengthy return policy/customer support was superb! - and very fast shipping. Plumbing direction and fitting options and angles get quite overwhelming when talking everything involved with the”swap” - remote oil filter, cooler, PS & cooler, PBrakes, fuel etc. I know I attempted to map everything out to perfection but once fittings were in hand, I in every case realized a different angle or configuration would work better…. I found it best to just order every possible option, finalize design/direction on the fly and return those that I did not use.

I noticed you linked the “XL” version of the T56. Was that to facilitate the Roaster Shop chassis or did you want the shifter further back?

Going to be awesome!
Thank you for the recommendations, I'll be sure to investigate your suggestions.

Since you essentially have my engine/transmission combination do you think I would be better served with (1) the engine oil /power steering cooling option or (2) the transmission cooling?

I've got the EOC/PSC option on order but I'm curious to hear if you ever have transmission heat issues and how you manage them. Related question did you go with the 205 degree engine oil thermostat over the 185?
 

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I have yet to drive my 65 enough to remotely get the transmission (T56) hot. I have not read of any major heat issues with them either. I guess you could say I don’t expect any temp issues in regards to the T56. If you are running hydraulic PS I would stick with the EOC/PSC option. As for my oil cooler/filter thermostat, I’m pretty sure I went with the 185. But admit I’ll need to look at my order. I know I can’t read the thermostat specs given the way the housing is mounted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
As for my oil cooler/filter thermostat, I’m pretty sure I went with the 185. But admit I’ll need to look at my order. I know I can’t read the thermostat specs given the way the housing is mounted.
Interesting, I haven’t researched what is best but I know I'm not supposed to rev my M5 above 3000 RPM until after the oil gets above ~210 degrees. A lot of e60 M5 owners developed engine problems from pushing too hard before the engine warmed up and I assumed the coyote operating temp would be similar. The S85 V-10 uses 10w-60 oil though so that may explain the higher operating temperature
 

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I remember questioning whether to go 185 or 205 - I may have a 205 but it was 2019 when I ordered and my memory is failing me…😜 Even without an oil thermostat you would be at or near the radiator exit temp. In my mind I prefer the oil temp to be a bit less than more. I know with most of my run times the oil has not even circulated through the cooler. Even though the the engine is 180+ the oil wasn’t as the plumbing going to/from the radiator oil cooler was cold (no flow etc.)
10w-60,,, dang, can’t say I even would of guessed they had such an oil weight. I’m sure your Aluminator is the same and requires 5w-50. Even when 70-80 in the shop at idle after start it’s at 110+ psi. Will drop down to about 60 psi at idle hot. The computer kicks the fans on at about 180 and it appears the engine thermostat is 195 as that’s were my gauge sits when putting around last.
 

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You can accomplish that very well with one overdrive gear, no need for 2....and before you say that it leaves a huge gap to go from 1.0 to 0.63, the fact is if you spin the engine to 7000RPM 4th gear at 1.00 and a 3.25 rear end gear would net you 160MPH...so unless you drive faster than 160MPH having 2 overdrive gears is worthless in an engine that revs to 7k at least
As I have vehicles with both, I can honestly say that I really like having the extra gears. With the 5 speed, on a lot of the local surface roads with 55 and 60 limits, there are a lot of times where I feel the urge to shift once I get cruising in 4th but going to 5th is too big a jump until I get out to 65 and 70 zones.
With the 6 speed though, that 5th gear settles in just right and lowers the RPMs to that sweet spot. Then hit the interstate, take it 6th gear and let the miles flow.
 

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The aluminator would melt a MT-82 (which I believe is only rated for 380 ft/lbs) but the TKX was an option because it is capable of handling 600 lb ft torque and 7,500 rpm shifts. However in my view the problem was if I ever wanted to sell the car, buyers wouldn't understand a 5-speed behind a ~580 HP engine that revs to 8K.

When putting together the driveline I'll admit I largely deferred to Ford engineers. Obviously the aerodynamics of this car are terrible compared to a modern car but given that the engine closely matches that of the GT350R I selected the 3.73 rear gears from the GT350R and the ratios of that car are
Gear Ratio1st2nd3rd4th5th6thReverse
3.252.231.611.241.000.632.95

I wanted the .80/.63 overdrive for both top end pulling power and 70+ mph cruising.

Honestly I thought all the 2.66 had a .50 final drive ... now I'm wondering if the 2.66 first gear would be more usable than 2.97. I cancelled my initial order and now I'm leaning toward the 2.66 with the .80/.63 final drive.

In first gear @6000 RPM 2.66 will be 44.98 mph
7000 will be 52.47 mph
7500 will be 56.22 mph
Those are far better than 2 overdrive gears...but if able to select gear ratios a 2.66 first would be a little long for what you want if using a 3.73 rear gear. A 2.93 1st would be near ideal if that's an option. Alternatively a 4.11 rear gear paired with a 2.66 1st would work nicely...at the expense of some added RPM for high speed cruising.

Honestly I wouldn't be concerned what potential buyers might think. Anyone that knows performance can tell you more gears is not always better....in fact often its a hinderance. If more gears were better we would be driving 10 speed manuals like semi trucks.

As I have vehicles with both, I can honestly say that I really like having the extra gears. With the 5 speed, on a lot of the local surface roads with 55 and 60 limits, there are a lot of times where I feel the urge to shift once I get cruising in 4th but going to 5th is too big a jump until I get out to 65 and 70 zones.
With the 6 speed though, that 5th gear settles in just right and lowers the RPMs to that sweet spot. Then hit the interstate, take it 6th gear and let the miles flow.
If speaking of cruising there is no such thing as too big a jump..as long as your RPM doesn't drop below 1500RPM with the shift anyway, you could likely get away with 1000RPM with a v8 and still have enough torque to cruise comfortably. There is a line of thought that you are somehow damaging your clutch if you are cruising along at less than 2000RPM from what some people think...but that simply isn't true, I know from personal experience as long as you are already in gear and the clutch is already engaged you can slow down to 750rpm with no damage to the clutch. I know because on a previous car(4 cylinder no less) I made a habit of cruising at the lowest possible RPM and drove that way for the entire 150k miles or so that I owned the car without ever changing the clutch. Note: This applies to cruising only...RPM drop does not matter. Its only for acceleration(and performance deceleration) that a big gap between gears even matters...and for that you need to be going more than 150mph to affect anything over a 1.00 ratio which is simply not going to happen in a vintage mustang without some serious aerodynamics modifications.

I hate to say it...but 6 speed transmissions are gimmicks...and a case could be made that 5 speeds are as well...with the saving grace of interstate travel saving some gas with an overdrive gear. To be clear, if I didn't have to make a custom adapter plate to swap to a 5 speed transmission with my engine, I would most certainly have chosen a 5 speed over a 6 speed, and if I planned to turbocharge the engine I would have gone with a 4 speed(or maybe a 3 speed with an overdrive gear like the SROD if there were one that was tough enough). A T56 with both overdrive gear ratios really is just a 4 speed +2...all your performance is in the first 4 gears, and the vast majority of the time when accelerating is spent in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. More is not always better:



It may just be me, but I don't particularly enjoy driving a truck and having to shift every half a second. Porsche disagrees with my views though :ROFLMAO:
 

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I didn’t know it at the time but one of the best things I did was separate and save every part, nut, bolt, screw, wire you name it off my 65 during disassembly. I felt I wouldn’t need 3/4s of it but I can’t tell you how many items I went back just for install clarification, ideas on fabrications, need of said part or connection, you get the idea.
 

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