[Jeff_Speegle]

Since 66's did not come with trunk mounted batteries, the trunk mounted batteries were different from the standard front mount battery and the rules call for the correct battery cables you would loose a number of points depending on your configuration.

Possible 9 or so points

 

[Jeff_Speegle]

"I'm just pointing out that MCA doesn't have anyway of knowing whether the Shelby they're judging is the way it's supposed to be or not"

Not sure what you mean by the statement Bob.

Since there less produced, all were built at only one factory per year and allot of the documentation has been saved I would suggest that we know a fair amount about how the cars were built. In your example the 66 Shelby was a pretty standard vehicle. If you discount the 14 or so Trans-ams, couple of drag cars and the convertibles, the rest varies less than the standard Mustang line.

If you are suggesting we don't ALWAYS know how the car was delivered or modified by the pervious owners I would say we still know more about these cars than we do about Mustangs in general.

The real Pandora’s Box IMHO is that MCA in an attempt to be nice allows the cars to be shown as they were delivered not how they came from the factory. This allows owners of Mustangs and other cars to have options (within limits) that were available on their car. One issue we've always had is that some accessories are more accepted by judges. For example you can put styled steel wheels and a console on an A code fastback. But if you add tri-wye headers and 2-4's you might get dinged for those.

In either case we would ask the owner to provide proof/documentation, if the judge needed it. And in your example we would ask the owner if he/she had some proof that that particular car was delievered with the roll bar installed. At that point it would be up to the team leader, asst Head Judge for that division or the Head Judge to make the determination.

At SAAC events no options are allowed. So in your example you would loss points for the battery, roll bar, fuzzy dice.....

Not sure if I fully answered the question

 

[Jeff_Speegle]

A little insight.

The issue you mention is limited to 65-66 Shelbys since the rest (as far as paint) is pretty easy to figure out.


MCA (as far as I know) long ago choose not to get full Marti reports on the cars on the judging field and in the same way it has been discouraged for judges to carry around reference material that had specific information about particular cars. Of course this could change at anytime if the abuses became too evident ( car that are know to have color changes - your example- keep winning top awards)

At the same time if a judge knows that a car has had a color change and the owner is asked to prove the car is the original color then the responsibility shifts to the owner. Cars rarely show only at one show and judges, not wanting to make mistakes, should do their homework. Of course if the team leader knows of this possibility they should approach the head judge and get the possibility dealt with (moving the car to modified) ahead of time.

I have deducted on a number of occasions for color changes on Shelbys.

 

[Jeff_Speegle]

Just to continue the discussion .... really


".....there isn't one judge that knows everything there is to know about your specific car,"

More the reason to get involved and educated others about the changes that came during production.


"mostly due to the fact that Ford was SO inconsistent."

Would suggest after 30+ years of owning these cars Ford was more consistent than not. It’s interesting to see owners who "know" there car came that way. Why? "Because I know so and that's the way it was when I bought it/the first owner bought it ......

"So if your car's widget is green and the judge "knows" that it is supposed to be blue, you have to prove that yours was originally green. You might know that it was green but you can't prove it."

Back to the "the owner know it" If there is nothing to prove it how does the owner know that's the way it was? If you know something is going to be an issue do some homework and bring it to the show to educate and share with other owners (their looking at your car) and the judges. It’s not very likely that yours is the only car built that way. Instead we tend to see mini-trends. A worker who choose to do something different, do to their height, size, ability or laziness. But in general they tell us that they tended to pick something and stick with it...... unless they were screwing with the inspector or another worker

"So points are deducted (usually leading to extreme agitation on the part of the owner)."

I would offer that in almost every case were a point was deducted for something that should not have been deducted for there is another item that the judges did not catch. I always figure it works out as an even trade. In fact we miss much more than we catch generally. But some owners only want to complain about the thing the judge did wrong

".....So IMO I have two choices (1) show the car and deal with the inconsistencies of the judging,"

Or you might want to phrase it as the inconsistencies of the cars and owners

Judges not perfect.... you bet. Have people at every show that are more than willing to tell us so. We do the best we can with the understanding we currently have. Good judges never stop learning but most have seen enough cars and details not to except that rules and judging should change just because one owner or car is restored differently from the current understanding. I don't suggest that we ignore this "new" detail but if we changed the rules every time we get told "my car came that way" car show participants would have a real bone to pick with us.

Not wanting to sound defensive argumentative - we've lost many good judges through the years . Loosing each has set the hobby and the understanding allot IMHO

After 35 years of judging I'm always happy for an opportunity to discuss the in's and out's of the process - Thanks Bob for the site

 

[Jeff_Speegle]

First Bob, thanks for the opportunity to discuss this

"suspicious" I would not think that would be the word I would use. Instead consider this. Shelby MCA judge often access to the same documentation as any other organization has.

I don't think anyone want to give a national trophy in a restored class which we find out later was not restored. For example years ago there was a top end restored 69 R code Convertible that was restored and shown allot. It won first after first and was featured in many national magazines. Well as the story goes one of the workers that helped build the car eventually came out to explain that the car was not what it was shown and later sold as (got allot more money for it due to the awards, articles and so on). Car was a converted 351W automatic convertible.

My earlier comments should not be (thought I said it but not likely clear enough read to say that MCA currently gets a Marti report or VIN report from SAAC on all cars entered in the restored and modified classes. Instead I would not put it beyond a individual judge at a show that sees that a car in the class he/she is judging has something out of the ordinary on a car to investigate it if they can. It only makes them a better judge I would think.

For example if 6S001 showed up with a vinyl top or 5S010 with thunderbird taillights I bit of homework would help out allot since the rules do not specify they two oddities of production. At the same time – see response below- I would as an owner expect and be prepared to offer information to the judges on their arrival at the car.

_________________________________________________
"Is every 66 Shelby owner supposed to show up with something documenting how the car came from Shelby"


After a full restoration and all the related research (or dollars) that it takes to do one today every owner knows how their car is similar or dissimilar to the current expectations. Most owners and restorers start out with a set of rules to guide the process. I get allot of calls about "my car is different" and on investigation and discussion with the owner (seeing the car when possible) I would report that approx 80% can be explained away for one reason or another.

But like UFO's, what about the others. In this case I'v learned something new that I in turn try and share with other judges and owners. Something this site and the other before it, have been wonderful for.

If you know you car is different in some way you must have looked into why your car is that way by the time it get to the judged event. Not to bring that information with you (doesn't normally take that much space in the trailer) would be silly.

Bob- just a direct response to you example. Why would an owner not expect to lose points in a restored class when the car they are showing (in your example a color change) was not restored?

This response is not an officical response of MCA, its officers or its membership.


“Showing and judging …… not for the weak ”