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Discussion Starter #1
I asked this question here before, but I am looking for specifics this time.

I just tore open the 200cid in my 66 and it looks to need, at best, a
complete teardown. I am looking to make this car a daily driver with
reliabilty as the foremost performance factor. I was told here (thanks for
the help 22GT, you've really help focus this project!) that keeping
the 200 would be my best option since it was spunky enough and, coupled
with the planned T5, would get healthy MPG. I was also told that a V8
swap of any kind would be a huge undertaking since it needed so much
change under the hood.

Well, I am upgrading the radiator, transmission, driveshaft, rear axle, front
suspension, steering, and ignition regardless of what motor I choose. The
ONLY reason I see for keeping the 200cid is the A/C connection and even
that may be moved easily. My non-ford friends are putting on the pressure
to switch to a EFI 5.0L since it will be more "reliable" AND provide a
healthy power boost.

My question - since I am basically replacing the entire drivetrain anyway
(including the motor now,) what downside is there to moving up to the
289, 302, or EFI 5.0L? Are there any upsides besides cheaper parts and
HP/Tq?

I really do not mind the 200cid, I am just worried now that I may be
shooting myself in the foot in the long run by keeping it at this point.
 

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You'll make more HP/Torque with a 289 or 302, sure. The "upsides" to having an inline 6 are, in my case anyways, being different, and great gas mileage out of a classic. I don't like going to shows and seeing every single Mustang having a 289/302...it just gets old. I've got nothing against them, though. They're great and a lot of fun.
 

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if you're going to do the suspension and spindles (5 lug for V8s) for the V8... might as well do the engine too. I'm sure any advice 22GT gave you is probably among the best you can get, but if you're itching for an 8... a 6 just might not cut it. If it's just a matter of getting a new engine in there (and you liked a 6), I'd probably just stick with the 6. That said, if you're looking for more power... why not just get a V8 car?

I'm not sure that the 5.0 efi is more "reliable" (define reliable) per se... electronics and computers get expensive when they break too. They might be easier to dial in, and adjust (maybe, and that's a stretch)... but I've seen cars with the same carb on them run like a champ, with nothing done to them for a long time.
 

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That straight 6 motor you have is pretty much bullet proof. All things being equal, it's hard to imagine any engine change providing a sizeable increase in reliability.

What about taking a middle ground—take the spindles to 5 lug and beef up the suspension so you could handle a v8 motor with simple modifications, but stick with the 6? That way you aren’t stuck if you get a few years down the road and decide you want a 289 or 302. It would also keep your costs a little lower for the immediate work.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm not sure that the 5.0 efi is more "reliable" (define reliable) per se...
Yeah, thats one of the problems with not hanging out with Oval guys - I
have no practical experience at all with any of these motors. I assumed
that since the 5.0L is a popular swap and there is a huge following of
the fox bodies at the drag strip then.... .... ....


What about taking a middle ground—take the spindles to 5 lug and beef up
the suspension so you could handle a v8 motor with simple modifications,
but stick with the 6? .
Well that was the working plan until I realized the motor was far more
worn out than originally thought. After my last post here I had planned to
pull the original motor and rebuild it when I mated it to the T5, I'm just
having a tough time finding a runner 200 to serve duty until the original is
ready. 300+ miles away people cannot give them away, but locally I've
only found two - one is too new to fit nice, and the other isn't quite for
sale yet. I hate to spend hundreds of dollars on a motor worth dozens...
 

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Used, running 200s are cheap and plentiful if you don't want to bother rebuilding it. I doubt if there's a more reliable Ford engine than the 7-main six.
 

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Regardless of whatever modifications you are going to make anyway, your choice of engine should be based on your intended use. If it's to be a daily driver, go with the 200. You'll have plenty of power and save a fair amount on gas. If it's to be an occasional ride and you want to spin the tires now and again, go with the 5.0L.

I'm older and would have been perfectly happy with a 200 even though I'm intending to use it only on weekends in the good weather. My son, on the other hand, says it's about bragging rights but I suspect he'll do more proving than bragging with the 347 he conned me into and that frightens me. A vintage Mustang will turn heads based on class rather than muscle. It's more about body, paint and trim than what's under the hood.
 

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That straight 6 motor you have is pretty much bullet proof. All things being equal, it's hard to imagine any engine change providing a sizeable increase in reliability.

What about taking a middle ground—take the spindles to 5 lug and beef up the suspension so you could handle a v8 motor with simple modifications, but stick with the 6? That way you aren’t stuck if you get a few years down the road and decide you want a 289 or 302. It would also keep your costs a little lower for the immediate work.

This is where I am at right now. I have had my car on the road for 2 whole days with the I6 and V8 running gear, and am itching for the 8. Its my fault, I knew that the mismatch of rear gears and C4 would suck, but not this bad. If you are going to replace something, why not upgrade? As far as everyone else at the show having an 8... I 'm building my car for me to drive, not someone else to look at for 10 seconds at a show. If they can't appreciate all the work that has gone into converting the car to what it is, oh well.
 

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Used, running 200s are cheap and plentiful if you don't want to bother rebuilding it. I doubt if there's a more reliable Ford engine than the 7-main six.

My next driver project will be a 6. Hindsight being 20/20, I would have stuck with the 6, and installed a 5 speed. I just "HAD" to have a V8.
 

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Well, I am upgrading the radiator, transmission, driveshaft, rear axle, front suspension, steering, and ignition regardless of what motor I choose. The ONLY reason I see for keeping the 200cid is the A/C connection and even that may be moved easily. My non-ford friends are putting on the pressure to switch to a EFI 5.0L since it will be more "reliable" AND provide a healthy power boost.

I really do not mind the 200cid, I am just worried now that I may be
shooting myself in the foot in the long run by keeping it at this point.
:deadhorse:

Wow. I can add little what has already been said.

Depends on whether a "healthy power boost" has anything to do with your goals. It will substantially reduce mileage. I just paid $3.47/gal.

You can install front disc brakes on an otherwise stock 6 for about $300. Handling mods are identical regardless of engine.

To convert a 64-66 cylinder Mustang to V8, you need to replace:

Engine
Transmission
Engine Mounts
Driveshaft
Rear axle assembly complete
Rear brakes
Rear springs
Exhaust system
Front-to-rear fuel line
Front spindles
Front springs
Sway bar
Front brakes
Inner & outer tie rod ends & adjusters
Center link
Idler Arm
Pitman arm
Radiator and hoses
Engine wiring harness
Throttle pedal and linkage

Some other stuff I forgot.

Still wanna go V8?
 

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Engine Frame mounts, Unless those were covered in eng mts on your list.

I think I would ponder Turbo charging that 6 with a 5 sp first. :)
 

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Check out FORDSIX PERFORMANCE • Index page and Classic Inlines Home and Parts Index

They have tons of information on the ford 6 plus lots of hp goodies. I am sticking with my six as there are very few at the shows that I have seen and I like to be different. With the new Classic Inline Al head plus some other upgrades you can get over 200hp plus tons of torque.

I have already converted to the T5 and it made quite a bit of difference even with the standard 6. I hope to get the aluminum head this year.
 

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I personally think the 6, while being a great and reliable engine, is a slug.

You'll spend more putting a turbo on a 6 than dropping in a v-8 by the time you work out all the bugs.

There are millions of 5.0 v-8s sitting out there to be had for next to nothing. There are also plenty of 200's out there.. but I think at this point the 5.0 stuff is easier to get. Try to find parts for a 200-6cyl in your local junk yard anymore and you'll see what I'm talking about. Ask for a 5.0 and the average yard will have 10+.

Most of the suspension parts you would need for the conversion can be purchased new or found on ebay or Craigslist. And since you're replacing most of it anyway, it makes sense to get the v-8 stuff because it doesn't cost any more than the 6 stuff.

I think a well done v-8 conversion is worth more to your average Mustang buyer than an original 6-cyl car anyway.

I'll admit that the conversion doen't make sense for everyone.. but in your case, it's a no-brainer.

-Shannon
 

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I've had plenty of V8's..., and for daily driving....especially gas economy... I vote six!

That 200 cid inline six is the most reliable thing on the road...and never overheats like a V8...not only that, A typical V8 goes about 100,000-120,000 before needing a rebuild, a Six banger will go Three times that amount, 250,000-360,000 without needing a rebuild if maintained correctly... Need any other evidence?

I'm shocked that your six needs a rebuild...Someone must have neglected the maintenance and drove the tar out of it..

The inline six is the most efficient engine design. A V8 is actually inefficient engineeringly speaking..when compared to the inline six. The 200 cid is really peppy and has lots of power for the mustang which is only 2700 pounds. Anyone that has driven one will tell you...You get alot of power out of that 1 barrel carb.

I drove my inline six in my last '66 Hardtop for over 13 years....and the guy that I sold it to is still driving it... The only thing that I ever did to it was a head rebuild with new lifters and valves..

For about $1300.00 or less, You can get a completely rebuilt block and head from like Advance Auto Parts or PepBoys...Check it out.. They are usually bored .10 to .30 over...More power!.....Check it out...

But 1960's ford sixes are all over the place.. If I were you, I would just look in your local Craigslist ads or Ebay... or Autotrader mags.. You will find one cheap...Guaranteed. Just make sure that you get the history of the engine if possible. One time, I bought a complete engine and tranny from a '66 that was involved in a rollover... Best deal that I ever made.. You might actually get a nice C4 out of the deal as well.. It's always better if you can see the engine running.. If you get a 250 cid, You will need Shelby hood to make it fit.. It's a direct swap also, It just sits a little higher. More power!! hehehe..

Good luck in your hunt! I'm sure that you will find a good one. Good ones can be found for $300-400 or less.. I would start at $150.00!!
Tony K.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
22GT - I really, really appreciate what you are trying to tell me, but you are not
listening to what I'm telling you about my plans. The Transmission, driveshaft,
ignition, steering, steering column, brakes, rear axle, springs, shocks, and
part of the wiring loom are going to be replaced/upgraded whether I keep this
200, buy another 200, or go with the V8s. The work below will be done,
period:

Engine - Need new or 2nd motor to drive car during rebuild.
Transmission - T5, parts already inbound.
Engine Mounts
Driveshaft - Part of T5 conv
Rear axle assembly complete - Bought
Rear brakes - Bought, and will upgrade
Rear springs - Bought
Exhaust system - Needs replacement anyway.
Front-to-rear fuel line
Front spindles - Part of 5-lug Conv
Front springs - Part of 5-lug conv
Sway bar - Needs replacement anyway.
Front brakes - Will upgrade anyway
Inner & outer tie rod ends & adjusters - Part of 5-lug conv
Center link - Part of Tilt Install
Idler Arm - Part of Tilt Install
Pitman arm - Part of Tilt Install
Radiator and hoses - Need replacing anyway.
Engine wiring harness
Throttle pedal and linkage

Some other stuff I forgot.
That being said, I was originally planning on keeping the motor because I
thought it original (its not) and thought it was in good enough condition (it
aint.) The cracked oil pan alone will run me $150+ new if I cannot find a used
one (like LDL said, no local junkyards carry anything 200 anymore.) No local
part houses carry things like the main bearings, rod bearings, or any of the
gaskets in stock. And ordering these things online takes 2-150 days
depending on supplier. So right now its (technically) cheaper and quicker for
me to buy a new motor than to replace a stripped oil plug or valve cover
gasket. A motor with 500,000 miles of potential means nothing if a water
pump strands you a hundred miles away from your laptop.

I have had great luck with the 6cyls in my jeeps, the prospect of a 25mpg+
classic is very appealing, I have plenty of horsepower oozing from
other projects, and considering the personal value of the car its wildly unlikly
that I will ever sell it. So considering all the effort I will be putting into this
rebuild already, is the 6cyl the motor to keep or should I been looking
elsewhere?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I'm shocked that your six needs a rebuild...Someone must have neglected
the maintenance and drove the tar out of it..
I think someone cracked the oil pan years ago and used some kind of
instant gasket junk to try to seal it up - except instead of sealing the pan
its also now sealing the oil intake, the crank, ... ... ... All the gaskets are
bad, but other than that the motor may, or may not be fine. To be
absolutely sure I'll need to tear it apart anyway - and if I'm already in
there....


But 1960's ford sixes are all over the place.. If I were you, I would just
look in your local Craigslist ads or Ebay... or Autotrader mags.. You will
find one cheap...Guaranteed.
Careful, I may call you on that. :burnout: Actually I have been scouring
Searchtempest, Ebay, the local junk yards, even a few auctions and I
have yet to find a running (pre '75) 200 anywhere nearby, like I mentioned
before, they simply aren't here (or at least no one is advertising and I
haven't made enough backyard connections yet.). The closest I found
sitting is in north jersey (3hrs away.) In CT, and OH they seem to grow
on trees...

I can't tell you how frustrating it is knowning there's a 67 289 for sale
literally within walking distance of where I sit, but it could be entirely the
wrong motor for what I need out of the car...
 

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Who isn't listening to you? With the upgrades you are planning, you could go with either a V8 or I6. You asked for opinions so I said I favor the I6. In the end, it's your car and you are the one it needs to please, not me. Do you really need any of us to tell you what you will be happiest with?
 

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Let's look at goals, and tolerance for hassle.

If you look up the specs on, say, a 2011 Jetta diesel, you'll find it gets to 60mph in a little under half the time that it would take a healthy stock-head 200ci Mustang to reach 60. It gets to 100 in...well, good luck getting a six-cylinder Mustang to 100.

The six makes no power, it cannot be made to make power without significant hassle and/or expense.

If you swap the head and intake and go to EFI or multiple carburetors, you might manage to match, or slightly better, a modern-day Corolla for HP.

If you're up for a six-month tuning and development project you can turbocharge the six, and when you're done if you get it right you'll just about match a mildly-tuned 302.

So, if you stick with the six, you do so because:

a) You don't care much about power, or
b) You want to be different and don't mind spending the time and money to get there.

No sin in either of those two choices, but just understand the tradeoff you're making. If you're trying to have a car that's got a reasonably modern level of performance, it's going to take a lot of work to make the six match what a 289 or 302 will do off-the-shelf and the path of least resistance is to start looking at 331 crate motors.

Note that the six is a strong motor, the Australians continued developing the same basic design for the past forty years and down there you can buy a Falcon with a DOHC four-valve head with variable cam timing, turbocharged, making around 350HP net out the factory door and in some cases much, much more when the tuners get done:

Want one? http://www.ftgautosalvage.com.au Cost a bit to get here, of course, and you might want to buy a couple to have some spares.

I love the Australian Falcons. Even in base-model rental form they're better than any car Ford has ever sold in the US - the only thing Ford's ever done here that gets close is the Lincoln LS. If Ford ever sold the Falcon (that is, the current rear-drive Falcon, not some future, neutered FWD thing they're threatening to replace it with) here I (might) sell my M5. But I digress...

Now, EFI vs carburetor. EFI is superior in drivability, flexibility, etc. That said, the difference isn't huge unless laptop-tunability matters a lot to you, and it involves a certain degree of electrical and plumbing complexity to retrofit. You need to decide whether the hassle is worth the benefit to you. For the V8 there are 'cookbook' solutions that basically mimic the '87-93 Fox Mustang configuration and off-the-shelf wiring harnesses, etc. but it's still quite a bit of work to do it right.

Personally: I suppose if there were some particularly rare and valuable six-cylinder Mustang that fell into my hands, I might hold onto one as an investment. But, unless I decided to turbo the snot out of one, I would have no interest in driving a six-cylinder Mustang, just as I have no interest in driving a sixties Falcon-chassis Ford with stock power steering. At that point there are old cars that are as cheap to run and much more fun to drive - a Cortina or a Datsun 510, or if I were feeling expensively masochistic that week an Alfa Giulia or GTA, any of which would be a nicer drive than a six-cylinder Mustang.

On the other hand, I did decide to go ahead with EFI on my 302 '65, it probably added about two months of project time to the car, but in the end I think I'll be happy I did.
 

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stay six my friend. like you said there are less and less I6 out there, I want to be different so I am staying with the six.
 
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