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Discussion Starter #1
I am thinking about upgrading to one of these. Has anyone who has a pmgr mini starter bypassed the onboard solenoid and used the factory solenoid?

Reason for the question is that I have a trunk mounted battery and solenoid and I don't want to have a constant 'live' wire from the trunk to the starter. Looking at these starters, it just seems like a standard solenoid attached (send start signal, activate solenoid/relay, starter gets power from battery). My thoughts on this is that the charge from the battery would have to travel the length of the car regardless of whether the solenoid is next to the battery or next to the starter. If there is a voltage drop, it will occur in both conditions. Would the distance of the solenoid on these starters have a great affect on its effectiveness?

For reference; I currently have a 1/0 gauge welding wire cable from my solenoid to the starter, about 8' in length.
 

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Yes. I used the factory solenoid. I ran the power cable from the factory solenoid to the PMGR solenoid power connection. Then i made a jumper wire from the PMGR power lug to the PMGR solenoid + terminal. With this connection, applying power to the power lug of the PMGR solenoid, then pulls in the PMGR solenoid causing the starter to crank the engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yes. I used the factory solenoid. I ran the power cable from the factory solenoid to the PMGR solenoid power connection. Then i made a jumper wire from the PMGR power lug to the PMGR solenoid + terminal. With this connection, applying power to the power lug of the PMGR solenoid, then pulls in the PMGR solenoid causing the starter to crank the engine.
As I don't have one in front of me yet, I don't think I am following your terminology of the posts. I found a picture below online and named the posts. Is the 'PMGR solenoid power connection' you mention the post labeled 'Battery Post' or 'Motor post'? Then for the jumper wire, which posts does it tie together? Thank you
 

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Make a jumper from the battery post to signal activator post.
This way when you apply power to the “battery post” from the old solenoid, the solenoid on the PMGR pulls in.
 

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He is correct. You would basically put a ring terminal on the black wire in that pic and hook it to the battery post terminal. Basically like how we used to hot wire cars in the old days. Ah hell, the statute of limitations is way past up by now. ;)
 

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It's simple enough to do, the factory already did it and you just follow their lead. Some Explorers and other trucks (like my 1995 F150) came with PMGR starters AND the old school remote solenoid. You don't bypass, you just run both solenoids in conjunction. I put my solenoid in the trunk. When I turn the key to start, power goes to the trunk solenoid which then powers up the cable to the onboard solenoid. In my case I ran a separate relay to simultaneously trigger the onboard solenoid.

A simpler way is to run a jumper wire from the heavy cable to the onboard solenoid terminal and thus eliminate the extra relay I am using. But to do that you need a fair sized diode on that jumper. If you don't use a jumper the spinning starter motor backfeeds power to the solenoid and keeps the starter motor engaged a second or two after you let off the key. THis is hard on starter and flywheel teeth plus it makes a nasty noise. I've heard some people say they haven't noticed the backfeed issue when wiring that way but I always got it.
 

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No need for that.
Just use an automotive mega fuse. It will handle a starter motor application no worries. I have my battery in the trunk with a 250amp 32v mega fuse. It has been going for two years now, and it gets started every second day. They are slow blow fuses, and an adequately sized one will not blow with a starter motor draw(maybe if you kept cranking it while in gear??) It will blow pretty quickly if it earthed out though. They are used in various factory cars.
People need to move on from the solenoid relocation thing if they have a solenoid on the starter. No need.

Like this one
http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotive-fuses/littelfuse_automotive_bolt_down_fuse_mega_32v.pdf
 

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My '06 F150 is factory equipped with a PMGR starter, and I first thought is didn't have a fender mounted solenoid, but later discovered it had one buried in the wiring. If you do not use a fender mounted solenoid, you run the risk of burning out the ignition switch because it was never designed for that much amperage.
If you have ever has an old Chevy, which used a starter with a solenoid mounted on to of it, you have probably experienced the dreaded "click" when trying to start. This is caused by burned contacts in the ignition switch and too much resistance in the start circuit wiring. The cure was to adapt a Ford style fender mounted solenoid.
Not using a solenoid with a PMGR will work, but for how long is anybody's guess.

Fox type Mustangs use a starter solenoid with a built in diode. So if you don't need a solenoid with two small terminals, it will work well.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thank you all for the replies thus far. Yes, I do plan on using a solenoid on the system. The solenoid will be the fender mounted one (now located in the trunk) that will trigger the PMGR mounted solenoid. My fender mounted solenoid is of the foxbody variety as I have it installed in my EFI converted car - it has a built in diode.
 

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My '06 F150 is factory equipped with a PMGR starter, and I first thought is didn't have a fender mounted solenoid, but later discovered it had one buried in the wiring. If you do not use a fender mounted solenoid, you run the risk of burning out the ignition switch because it was never designed for that much amperage.
If you have ever has an old Chevy, which used a starter with a solenoid mounted on to of it, you have probably experienced the dreaded "click" when trying to start. This is caused by burned contacts in the ignition switch and too much resistance in the start circuit wiring. The cure was to adapt a Ford style fender mounted solenoid.
Not using a solenoid with a PMGR will work, but for how long is anybody's guess.

Fox type Mustangs use a starter solenoid with a built in diode. So if you don't need a solenoid with two small terminals, it will work well.


Not entirely accurate....the reason why people used ford solenoids on Chevy was because heat soak with the solenoid being on the starter, not the ignition switch. Moving the solenoid away from engine heat helped prolong life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Other than the trigger wire to the solenoid, the only time the starter wire from the trunk mounted solenoid is hot is when the starter is cranked.
Not so the large gauge wire from the battery to the alternator.

 

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Not entirely accurate....the reason why people used ford solenoids on Chevy was because heat soak with the solenoid being on the starter, not the ignition switch. Moving the solenoid away from engine heat helped prolong life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You are not moving the solenoid away from the engine, the Ford solenoid sends current to the chevy solenoid because the chevy solenoid has the bendix incorporated with it. The heated soak is a valid point, but they would sometimes fail to engage even on a cold engine. If you ever get one, check the resistance in the wiring to the starter.
 

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Not all Chevys are created equal. Not that I'm an expert on GMs, but I seem to recall the switch problem was more an issue on the trucks. Heat soak VERY much a problem on '70's Corvettes. If you replaced the starter and were too lazy to put the heat shield back on with the new starter you figured that one out pretty quick. The "Corvette" heat shield was also a popular addition to many another GM product.
 

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Thank you all for the replies thus far. Yes, I do plan on using a solenoid on the system. The solenoid will be the fender mounted one (now located in the trunk) that will trigger the PMGR mounted solenoid. My fender mounted solenoid is of the foxbody variety as I have it installed in my EFI converted car - it has a built in diode.
If you want to use a solenoid instead of a fuse, and you move it into the trunk, you are still going to have a live wire from the rear to the front for the charge wire. So now you have to run two heavy gauge wires and are going to have to add a fuse on the other one anyway. Plus you are running the solenoid trigger wires to the rear also. Adding wiring for the sake of it.

If you really want to use the solenoid, then run a single fused cable like I said, to the solenoid in the engine bay. That saves you running multiple wires to the rear.
 

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If you do not use a fender mounted solenoid, you run the risk of burning out the ignition switch because it was never designed for that much amperage.
You use a relay. Most factory cars have a starter relay. Ignition signal goes to that, and it sends 12v to the starter mounted solenoid.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
@hus65
I currently have the solenoid in the trunk and the way it is currently set up is that I do not have a constant live wire going to the front of the car (standard starter), it is only live when the car is being started (starter engaged). All of the other wires to all of the features/accessories are fuse protected in case of shorting, including the alternator charging cable back to the battery. With the PMGR, I still plan on using the diode protected solenoid in the trunk, which in turn would activate the PMGR by connecting as Jsams, jgrote, and others have explained. This would keep from having a live wire going to the front of the car, except when starting, as well.

Our mustangs do not have starter relays, unless you are referring to the solenoid (known as the starting motor relay in the ford manuals). The wiring goes straight from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid. Newer cars have the separate relays of course.

I haven't ruled out your suggestion as I am intrigued that yours is working with the 250amp 32v mega fuse. I was not aware they are slow burning fuses. Your suggestion would require a few changes to my setup, but would also work. I will look more into it. Thanks for your suggestion as well.

This is what makes this forum so great. Options can be presented that others haven't even thought of or knew would work.
 

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Yeah I was just talking about adding a relay, which you should do if you get rid of the solenoid altogether( although AAW say you can run the starter wire straight from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid on the mini starter).

You can see the ratings in the link I provided. It tells you a rough time they can take the load before they let go. You could probably get away with a lower rating fuse than 250amp to be honest.

Plenty of ways to skin a cat. In my setup, I have one fused cable that runs to a junction under the passenger fender. Then the starter wire, alternator wire, and accessories etc all come off this junction. All the cables coming off this junction are all fused with fusible links, minus the starter cable. Keeps everything very clean and tidy, and minimum wiring needed to achieve the result.
 

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The GM "Heat Soak" issue existed on the 1966-1967 Chevelles and '66-'67 Pontiac GTO/Lemans V8's....or any Chevy V8's where the Passenger side Exhaust pipe was near the solenoid....The problem was notorious on cars that had Headers added. The GM I6's didn't suffer from these issues...
 

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I will be replacing my stock starter with a PMGR very soon and am wondering how to wire it in a stock replacement application. My car is 100% stock as far as wiring goes and most of the threads I'm reading are for trunk mounted battery, efi, etc.
 
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