Coyote not charging

478 Views 20 Replies 5 Participants Last post by gwistrup, 7 d ago

gwistrup

Discussion Starter · 14 d ago

I finally got my Coyote swap 1967 Mustang running and it is not charging. I was told by the tech guy at Ford performance that the alternator that comes with the Gen 3 Coyote crate engine will charge with only the large charging wire connected. It can be used as a one wire alternator. My car does not charge with the small 3 wire connector plugged in or not. I have a Power by the Hour front accessory drive kit on my engine and the alternator is now facing towards the rear of the car. Is the alternator turning backwards and is this why it doesn't charge or is my new alternator from Ford no good? Thank you, Gil

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Kjsmitty

· #2 · 14 d ago (Edited)

(Edited a few items)

Afternoon Gil,
Did your alternator have a clutch pulley or did you replace it with the solid pulley from PBH? I probably have the same alternator and definitely same PBH front setup - no issues running backwards. But if you used the original clutch style pulley she will be free wheeling turning in its new direction etc. If that’s the case don’t go purchasing that $100 PBH pulley just yet….

KJ

Reactions: 1

Woodchuck

· #3 · 13 d ago

If you have a 6G alternator it should have constant battery power through the YEL/WHI wire and switched ignition with a 470 Ohm resistor (bridging resistor if a warning lamp is used) to the LGR/RED wire.

gwistrup

Discussion Starter · #4 · 13 d ago

Woodchuck said:
If you have a 6G alternator it should have constant battery power through the YEL/WHI wire and switched ignition with a 470 Ohm resistor (bridging resistor if a warning lamp is used) to the LGR/RED wire.

What wiring diagram are you using? This vehicle has the Ford Gen 3 Coyote power pack wiring harness that doesn't use that color wires. There is no specific charge warning lamp used. This installation is using a Dakota digital dash.

gwistrup

Discussion Starter · #5 · 13 d ago

Woodchuck said:
If you have a 6G alternator it should have constant battery power through the YEL/WHI wire and switched ignition with a 470 Ohm resistor (bridging resistor if a warning lamp is used) to the LGR/RED wire.

Kjsmitty said:
(Edited a few items)

Afternoon Gil,
Did your alternator have a clutch pulley or did you replace it with the solid pulley from PBH? I probably have the same alternator and definitely same PBH front setup - no issues running backwards. But if you used the original clutch style pulley she will be free wheeling turning in its new direction etc. If that’s the case don’t go purchasing that $100 PBH pulley just yet….

KJ

I never thought of a free wheeling pulley. I will check that today.

Woodchuck

· #6 · 13 d ago

gwistrup said:
What wiring diagram are you using? This vehicle has the Ford Gen 3 Coyote power pack wiring harness that doesn't use that color wires. There is no specific charge warning lamp used. This installation is using a Dakota digital dash.

http://www.grandmarq.net/oldfuelinjection/public/alternator/6G-ALT_wiring_GRY.gif

wicked93gs

· #7 · 13 d ago

My 3.7L uses that same alternator. It is most certainly NOT a 1-wire alternator. I have one wire hooked to some 70s aftermarket adjustable voltage regulator and the other wire directly hooked into my 12v+ power source. No lamp connected. The heavy gauge cable of course runs to the battery 12v terminal.

gwistrup

Discussion Starter · #8 · 13 d ago

I removed the alternator from the vehicle this afternoon and it does have a clutch pulley. Is there a solid pulley from another alternator that will work or do I need to get one from Power By The Hour? Thank you for all your help.

Kjsmitty

· #9 · 13 d ago

gwistrup said:
I removed the alternator from the vehicle this afternoon and it does have a clutch pulley. Is there a solid pulley from another alternator that will work or do I need to get one from Power By The Hour? Thank you for all your help.

Evening Gil,
Yes, there are other pulleys - Problem is finding an easy source that sells just the pulley as they usually always come on the alternators.. Cars/Mustang alternators with manual transmissions had the clutch pulley and automatics had solid/“conventional” pulleys. I believe Powermaster is where I found one but never purchased (66mm pulley I believe). You will need the pulley and a nut. PBH makes it easy but at twice the cost..
You will probably need either a 14mm or 17mm Allen head driver and impact gun to remove the current pulley.

Here is what I did: I took the clutch pulley and pressed out the bearings. There is an inner and outer bearing and between the two is the “clutch“ section. Once pressed out, I simply turned the “clutch section” over and then pressed everything back in the pulley. Just need to ensure everything goes back in the pulley the same way it came out with exception to rotating / flipping the clutch section.. Basically you are just reversing the clutch action so it locks the pulley spinning in the opposite direction etc.
Some pulleys have a removable retainer ring which easily tells you which way to press out the bearings, others don’t. If you attempt this mod you will just have to study your pulley to see how the bearings can be pressed out. Depending on your pulley you may only need to press out one side by inserting the appropriate size device into the center etc. (Something with the same threads as the alternator perhaps).
Let me know what you have / what your pulley looks like.

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gwistrup

Discussion Starter · #10 · 13 d ago

Kjsmitty said:
Evening Gil,
Yes, there are other pulleys - Problem is finding an easy source that sells just the pulley as they usually always come on the alternators.. Cars/Mustang alternators with manual transmissions had the clutch pulley and automatics had solid/“conventional” pulleys. I believe Powermaster is where I found one but never purchased (66mm pulley I believe). You will need the pulley and a nut. PBH makes it easy but at twice the cost..
You will probably need either a 14mm or 17mm Allen head driver and impact gun to remove the current pulley.

Here is what I did: I took the clutch pulley and pressed out the bearings. There is an inner and outer bearing and between the two is the “clutch“ section. Once pressed out, I simply turned the “clutch section” over and then pressed everything back in the pulley. Just need to ensure everything goes back in the pulley the same way it came out with exception to rotating / flipping the clutch section.. Basically you are just reversing the clutch action so it locks the pulley spinning in the opposite direction etc.
Some pulleys have a removable retainer ring which easily tells you which way to press out the bearings, others don’t. If you attempt this mod you will just have to study your pulley to see how the bearings can be pressed out. Depending on your pulley you may only need to press out one side by inserting the appropriate size device into the center etc. (Something with the same threads as the alternator perhaps).
Let me know what you have / what your pulley looks like.

Great idea to reverse the one way clutch. Friday I will take it apart and switch it around. Thank you for your help.

Reactions: 2

Kjsmitty

· #11 · 13 d ago

Fingers crossed your pulley cooperates.. Also use an impact gun to re-install it. Don’t be shy as it’s now rotating in a direction to just loosen/turn the pulley off the alternator. Just ensure it’s good and tight. Mines been on there for 500 miles and has seen a few spins in excess of 7200 crank rpm..😄 All good👍

Reactions: 1

wicked93gs

· #12 · 12 d ago

Kjsmitty said:
Evening Gil,
Yes, there are other pulleys - Problem is finding an easy source that sells just the pulley as they usually always come on the alternators.. Cars/Mustang alternators with manual transmissions had the clutch pulley and automatics had solid/“conventional” pulleys. I believe Powermaster is where I found one but never purchased (66mm pulley I believe). You will need the pulley and a nut. PBH makes it easy but at twice the cost..
You will probably need either a 14mm or 17mm Allen head driver and impact gun to remove the current pulley.

Here is what I did: I took the clutch pulley and pressed out the bearings. There is an inner and outer bearing and between the two is the “clutch“ section. Once pressed out, I simply turned the “clutch section” over and then pressed everything back in the pulley. Just need to ensure everything goes back in the pulley the same way it came out with exception to rotating / flipping the clutch section.. Basically you are just reversing the clutch action so it locks the pulley spinning in the opposite direction etc.
Some pulleys have a removable retainer ring which easily tells you which way to press out the bearings, others don’t. If you attempt this mod you will just have to study your pulley to see how the bearings can be pressed out. Depending on your pulley you may only need to press out one side by inserting the appropriate size device into the center etc. (Something with the same threads as the alternator perhaps).
Let me know what you have / what your pulley looks like.

Weird...mine is a conventional solid pulley. Its a sad thing when the electrical system of a car pulls so much amperage that a clutch is needed on the alternator.

Kjsmitty

· #13 · 12 d ago

wicked93gs said:
Weird...mine is a conventional solid pulley. Its a sad thing when the electrical system of a car pulls so much amperage that a clutch is needed on the alternator.

It actually has has nothing to do with amperage/load. Well, somewhat load you could say.. More so the shear rotational forces of spinning at very high rpm then suddenly “not”, regardless of load - however, load could make said forces worse etc.. You find them most often on manual vehicles where shifting causes significant swings in alternator RPM (Not talking you fast mashing racer studs 😜). The clutch is there to decouple the alternators rotational forces from the cranks rotational / pulsing forces and vice versa. Basically smooths out the rotation of the alternator, removing forces and wear on the belt, alternator etc.
-When I chose to use the PBH front drive setup with a reverse facing alternator I wanted to keep the clutch style over a conventional pulley. Just seemed like a good idea given a motor that would have a redline approaching 8k. Helps to keep that belt, tensioner etc. much more stable.

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Woodchuck

· #14 · 12 d ago

wicked93gs said:
Weird...mine is a conventional solid pulley. Its a sad thing when the electrical system of a car pulls so much amperage that a clutch is needed on the alternator.

It's not that.... it's a parasitic load "thing". Same principle as when the ECM cuts power to the A/C compressor clutch when you floor it... The modern alternators are so high amperage that cutting them out on WOT frees up power.

Kjsmitty

· #15 · 11 d ago

A clutch pulley on an alternator isn’t there to combat parasitic load either. A clutch pulley is not there to completely decouple the armature on the alternator like a clutch on an AC compressor. It’s purely a mechanical clutch much like a ratchet or rear sprocket/hub on a bicycle. It decouples in one direction only regardless of load.👍

Woodchuck

· #16 · 11 d ago

Kjsmitty said:
A clutch pulley on an alternator isn’t there to combat parasitic load either. A clutch pulley is not there to completely decouple the armature on the alternator like a clutch on an AC compressor. It’s purely a mechanical clutch much like a ratchet or rear sprocket/hub on a bicycle. It decouples in one direction only regardless of load.👍

According to Bosch, who markets remanufactured alternators equipped with clutch pullies, the clutch decouples the alternator from the engines crankshaft to reduce the load. When the alternator is charging that is a parasitic load on the engine. According to Bosch, more vehicles are being equipped with clutch-type alternators primarily to meet government fuel economy standards.

Kjsmitty

· #17 · 11 d ago

Woodchuck said:
According to Bosch, who markets remanufactured alternators equipped with clutch pullies, the clutch decouples the alternator from the engines crankshaft to reduce the load. When the alternator is charging that is a parasitic load on the engine. According to Bosch, more vehicles are being equipped with clutch-type alternators primarily to meet government fuel economy standards.

Just having a conversation Woodchuck,, 😄
Bosch stating it’s for fuel economy reasons is a huge stretch if not just possible false/poor advertisement in my mind.
Now, I know my Honda ECU definitely “regulates” the alternator output beyond what the internal voltage regulator does for just that - increased fuel economy. The clutch pulley on an alternator however, “can not” reduce load on the engine if talking fuel economy purposes. It’s there purely to decrease the dynamics on the alternator, belt and other accessory drive components. From a pure engineering standpoint, while idling, crusing, and accelerating every bit of load the alternator is placing on the engine will be constant/coupled. Even if you take your foot off the pedal at speed and the engine rpm is decreasing slowly commensurate with vehicle speed the alternator load could remain constant/coupled. The engineering purpose of the clutch is to remove rotational force differences when engine and accessory drive speed decreases faster than the smaller, “much faster rotating” alternator pulley and armature forces could. It’s at that point the clutch pulley allows the alternator to continue spinning/free-wheeling until alternator pulley rpm reaches the accessory belt speed. Resulting in greatly reduced dynamics to the accessory drive and alternator. Any discussion on efficiency should be directed to the pulley “increasing” the charging efficiencies of the alternator.
Sorry, I just remember from when they started using the clutch pulleys I saw it as a great idea/function. Having something like an electrically controlled AC clutch would be awesome as well - especially for max HP situations. You would want it however where it was “always coupled” then electronically decoupled at say, at or near WOT. 👍
Respectfully,
KJ

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Woodchuck

· #18 · 9 d ago

Kjsmitty said:
Just having a conversation Woodchuck,, 😄
Bosch stating it’s for fuel economy reasons is a huge stretch if not just possible false/poor advertisement in my mind.
Now, I know my Honda ECU definitely “regulates” the alternator output beyond what the internal voltage regulator does for just that - increased fuel economy. The clutch pulley on an alternator however, “can not” reduce load on the engine if talking fuel economy purposes. It’s there purely to decrease the dynamics on the alternator, belt and other accessory drive components. From a pure engineering standpoint, while idling, crusing, and accelerating every bit of load the alternator is placing on the engine will be constant/coupled. Even if you take your foot off the pedal at speed and the engine rpm is decreasing slowly commensurate with vehicle speed the alternator load could remain constant/coupled. The engineering purpose of the clutch is to remove rotational force differences when engine and accessory drive speed decreases faster than the smaller, “much faster rotating” alternator pulley and armature forces could. It’s at that point the clutch pulley allows the alternator to continue spinning/free-wheeling until alternator pulley rpm reaches the accessory belt speed. Resulting in greatly reduced dynamics to the accessory drive and alternator. Any discussion on efficiency should be directed to the pulley “increasing” the charging efficiencies of the alternator.
Sorry, I just remember from when they started using the clutch pulleys I saw it as a great idea/function. Having something like an electrically controlled AC clutch would be awesome as well - especially for max HP situations. You would want it however where it was “always coupled” then electronically decoupled at say, at or near WOT. 👍
Respectfully,
KJ

So, what you're implying is that a crankshaft, with it's rotational mass plus the weight of the balancer and flywheel is going to decelerate FASTER than an alternator rotor, and one that would most likely be under load? I don't believe it.

Kjsmitty

· #19 · 9 d ago

Woodchuck said:
So, what you're implying is that a crankshaft, with it's rotational mass plus the weight of the balancer and flywheel is going to decelerate FASTER than an alternator rotor, and one that would most likely be under load? I don't believe it.

At a typical 3:1 ratio between alternator and crank pulley rpm, you bet. Now, not 100% of the time but it easily does. If the alternator and loads always resulted in it firmly coupled to crank/pulley rpm, there would be no need for them to have started using the fancy alternator pulley. Dealing with the dynamics of differing rpm is it’s sole purpose.

BarryS

· #20 · 8 d ago

Think of what happens when you do a high RPM up shift. Engines at 6,500 plus and suddenly the engine is back down to 4,500 RPM. The rotating inertia of the drive train losing 2,000 RPM is hard on the alternator, especially under load.

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