Coyote swapped cars for sale

Heres the angry old man shaking his fist......the reason the mod motors last well is because of computer controled fuel injection, an imrovement in oil, AND it is HUGELY because of transmissions. Because overdrive transmissions are in almost everything now, the engine spins less rpms on the highway. Now, Nail is quite correct, there ARE many LS powered vehicles where the engine is outlasting the vehicle. GM is changing these engines to compensate. BUT, if we look at the LS, what is it ? Its 50s design, thats what it is. cam in block, two valves per, and pushrods. The LS is basically a mirror image Windsor engine, just built by Chevy. Look at the 1.75 rockers- what else has rockers in the 1.7 + range ? Ford FEs and Clevelands and Limas. Look at the deep skirt blocks with crossbolts, and look at a '64 427 with crossbolts. Look at that those tall rectangle ports on the nicer LS engines- where have we seen those before ? the 1962 483 inch Starlifter FE engine. thats where. Nascar wouldn't allow it, so Ford released the heads as 'high risers' and sold them to drag racers. And you already know you can bolt the LS heads on a Windsor block, right ? You want advanced design ? Look at the 427 SOHC engine. Anything in a mod motor or a Coyote is 50+ yrs old news. Really guys, those Coyotes are for sailors !

LSG

Grimbrand said:

So bragging that a Mod motor can go 200, 300, 500k miles? Meh. I mean, that's nice, but then again, when it breaks, is the problem going to be fixable, or worth fixing? None of my mechanic friends have very nice things to say about them.

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No one is bragging. A claim was made that the older engines had better longevity than the newer engines. We're pointing out as a general statement that's simply not the case.

As for working on them one needs a different set of skills and tools. Most of the techs today were trained and grew up with EFI and ECU based cars, emissions, the whole banana. Full rebuilds of modern cars used for transportation isn't necessary or cost effective. An entire industry of take out parts exists today that didn't 50 years ago. I can call LKQ in the morning and chances are I'll have a take out that afternoon or no later than the next couple of days. In many cases regular driver 4 bangers are a couple/few grand and will likely have fewer miles on what just blew up. Coyotes are more than that but can be had for about half of what a crate would cost.

vegasloki said:

No one is bragging. A claim was made that the older engines had better longevity than the newer engines. We're pointing out as a general statement that's simply not the case.

As for working on them one needs a different set of skills and tools. Most of the techs today were trained and grew up with EFI and ECU based cars, emissions, the whole banana. Full rebuilds of modern cars used for transportation isn't necessary or cost effective. An entire industry of take out parts exists today that didn't 50 years ago. I can call LKQ in the morning and chances are I'll have a take out that afternoon or no later than the next couple of days. In many cases regular driver 4 bangers are a couple/few grand and will likely have fewer miles on what just blew up. Coyotes are more than that but can be had for about half of what a crate would cost.

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In this case, the real yardstick has to include whether "longevity" means how many continuous miles will it run, or how many years it will last.

If you mean longevity as a period of time, the Windsor wins.

If you mean how many miles will it go before breakdown in stock form, the Coyote wins.

But you're opening a whole new can of worms here in regard to salvage. I was around 50 years ago (though granted, not working on cars yet!) and even then, salvage yards were very common here, with a far broader selection and much more knowledgeable and helpful people behind the counter. I have friends that owned them. Was it better then or now? Maybe that's dependent on where you live?

I think you hit the nail on the head there:

20 years from now when you go to pull a Coyote from a pick and pull, do you think the plastic parts are going to be any better than the engine you're replacing?

Heres LSG, back after a good nights sleep, roaring back into the thread with angry fist wavings ! Have NOT left this thread ! Reguarding the 7.3 PSD, the important note is that is has only two valves per cylinder, the cam is in the block, and its a pushrod engine. I see a comment from Vegas claiming that the Mod / Coyotes have superior engineering- this is not so ! All of the engineering to have goofy timing chains and overhead cams on a production V8 were figured out by Ford in the mid 1960s- on the 427 SOHC engine. They were making 600 hp with this in 1964. The tech ideas in the Mod and Coyote engines is NOT new, or better. The reason Ford didn't put them into production at the time was because Bill France was AFRAID that Ford would win everything ( Chevy was not even close to competitive, Chrysler and Pontiacs and Buicks could have made a good fight ).

Someone ( Boss ? ) has a longevity article on Mod engines mentioning longevity, and mentions cylinder coatings. They don't HAVE cylinder coatings. I've rebuilt these engines at work, before I retired. They're just iron blocks like any other. Theres no special coatings. Among the rebuilding industry, people that actuall KNOW them, these engines are despised. They have a VERY troublesome history. They most certainly DO NOT outlast the 351W that they replaced. When Mrs LSG and I were looking for a pickup truck, we specifically searched for one wth a 351W. If there was a 4.6 or a 5.4 ( especially the three valve version ! ) we skipped even looking at that one ! found nice 351W powered 97 F250 HD, 229K BRUTAL miles on it from towing a livestock trailer. I had to replace the Idler pulleys and fan belt. No troubles. The trick to keeping a Mod engine happy in a pickup truck is to switch to, as the mileage rolls up, a thicker oil. When the bearings begin to wear slightly and oil pressure drops just a tiny bit, the camshaft phasers become confused. So stop with the 5W-20 and get 10W-30 instead. Then after a few more K miles, switch to 14W-40, then to 20W-50. When its finally rebuild time, get the straight-up, no phaser timing set from an econoline van, and reset the computer in the truck. Lots less trouble. And install inserts for the spark plugs. And those timing sets and phasers are brain hemmorage expensive. The Windsor timing set is less than $50. And the Windsor doesn't need any of the oil viscosity games to crutch it along.

One simply HAS TO remember that the pinacle of human achievement on this planet, engineering wise, was the creation and installation of the 427MR side oiler engine, and then installing it into a 1967 fastback. Engineering held a kind of a peak there till about 1971, and we have been going downhill ever since. We, humanity, are simply not as smart as we used to be. Don't know that we are able to get it back. I get the 'dare to be different' thing, I do. But I'd like to see more of us doing Dennis - type tower shaves, and maybe even pushed out farther, ALA the Boss 9. Then, use the resulting cavernous engine bay to install nicer headers on an FE with higher exit exhausts, like a Blue Thunder or a Felony head. THAT would be differernt ! LSG

Grimbrand said:

20 years from now when you go to pull a Coyote from a pick and pull, do you think the plastic parts are going to be any better than the engine you're replacing?

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The modern take out part model is not the salvage yard model. Relatively late model cars with lower miles that were written as totals are purchased either in bulk or at insurance auctions. Some are higher milage trade ins that didn’t sell at auction as running vehicles. Those are then stripped for usable parts with what’s left crushed or recycled. These days insurance companies are more willing to write something as a total than they were back in the day. A 20 year old car getting a replacement drive train doesn’t use this model.

A pick-part or traditional recycling yard gets parts from higher mileage, older cars. Those can be either from private parties or towing yards. Places like IAAI or Copart are often times more expensive so that doesn’t fit the low cost model. Many of the larger yards pull the good stuff before the car is released to the yard. For example the two Pic-A-Part yards here would pull a Coyote in good shape and sell it near what LKQ wants. Most of the engines here that are left in the car are stripped for manifolds, heads and other accessories with the short block left as a carcass. I’ve found lately I can’t get anything earlier than a late 90s and those are scarce.

Two different businesses aimed at different market segments.

vegasloki said:

The modern take out part model is not the salvage yard model. Relatively late model cars with lower miles that were written as totals are purchased either in bulk or at insurance auctions. Some are higher milage trade ins that didn’t sell at auction as running vehicles. Those are then stripped for usable parts with what’s left crushed or recycled. These days insurance companies are more willing to write something as a total than they were back in the day. A 20 year old car getting a replacement drive train doesn’t use this model.

A pick-part or traditional recycling yard gets parts from higher mileage, older cars. Those can be either from private parties or towing yards. Places like IAAI or Copart are often times more expensive so that doesn’t fit the low cost model. Many of the larger yards pull the good stuff before the car is released to the yard. For example the two Pic-A-Part yards here would pull a Coyote in good shape and sell it near what LKQ wants. Most of the engines here that are left in the car are stripped for manifolds, heads and other accessories with the short block left as a carcass. I’ve found lately I can’t get anything earlier than a late 90s and those are scarce.

Two different businesses aimed at different market segments.

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Bargains can be had, I know first hand. I have used Copart twice and in both cases bought donor cars for my builds.
The second purchase was in 2017 from Copart in Fontana CA. I bought a 4 month old 2017 Mustang GT with 2345 miles on it for $6500 including shipping to my home in AZ. What made such a great deal possible was that CA has a salvage title (repairable and registerable) and a junk title which cannot be registered for street use in CA. The car had front end damage and the interior had been stripped out. It was a former Hertz Rent a Car that insurance deemed unrepairable. However the engine did not incur a direct impact. Now the engine cover was gone, but I replaced that on Ebay for $75. The car was an automatic but when purchased it I did not care as I expected to put a Tremec behind it. Then I learned more about the 6R80 and decided to use that in my build too. I later sold off the body and other parts getting more that $1K back in my pocket. Later I realized just how good of a deal I got. From Ford Performance at the time, the 2nd Gen Coyote and 6R80 combo went for more than $15K. After getting such a screaming deal, I committed to the Coyote swap. I saved so much on the engine and transmission that I went hog wild on suspension, brake and wheel upgrades.
Copart purchases are definitely buyer beware situations. Fortunately I purchased two salvage vehicles and used them to build a Factory Five Cobra and the Mustang restomod in progress.
I will suggest a good performance rebuild on a SBF would cost more than my Coyote 6R80 combo. I am happy with what I did and don't care if that is not what someone else would do.