I was just running something my head the last few days and they classify the 260-289 as a Windsor engine and that got me to thinking if a 351 W would fit in a first generation Mustang without major modifications?
Sooooooo true.The 351w block's deck height is 1" taller than the 302. This means it is a little wider and taller.
That red coupe rearing up is like a 351W +++++, LOL. Did you ever try block huggers? Have you ever dyno'd your car? My drag math says you are making 728 at the wheels give or take a couple.Sooooooo true.
Having had a 351w in a 65' since 1980 I can tell you that it will certainly fit BUT the biggest headache will always be the exhaust (headers or manifolds.) This is because of the proximity of the shock towers to the wider motor. There are some swap headers available but their fit is, at best, iffy. Standard 289 manifolds will fit between the towers, just barely.
Never tried block huggers but I doubt if they would work. There is very little out there exhaust wise for a 65/66. The best fitting headers I used were Accufabs (and not cheap.) They required some work too.That red coupe rearing up is like a 351W +++++, LOL. Did you ever try block huggers? Have you ever dyno'd your car? My drag math says you are making 728 at the wheels give or take a couple.
Entirely false. I have a 351w in my 1965 fastback and used JBA mid length swap headers and the fit is perfect. I've also heard nothing but good things about the JBA headers in general, especially the swap headers and that's why I went with them. Did you ever try using JBA or is your opinion based on word of mouth?There are some swap headers available but their fit is, at best, iffy.
Either my car is possessed or you're remembering these things incorrectly as several of the things that you did or mentioned did not work for me. First... the Hedman headers that I tried were a joke. I tried both the long tube and shorties and on both of them the fit was terrible. They even have one tube on the drivers side that goes up at a sharp angle and would hit my brake booster... no way those things were going to fit as is. Second... the motor mounts are definitely needed to be changed out if you have the 1965 style motor mounts and brackets as they push the engine up almost an inch to help the headers clear the shock towers. Third... my eBay Champion Cooling radiator "cuts it." It's a 3 row aluminum radiator with a 16" electric fan and it never goes over 205 degrees. I just use the stock size/dimension radiator and have had great success with it so far. Also, the Champion Radiators come with a lifetime warranty. Fourth... the water pumps are all the same size dimensionally. The only differences between one another are the flow or the impeller size and where the inlet/outlet are in terms of the hoses going to the radiator.Have done several 351w's in 65-6 Mustangs. Pretty much a bolt in. Hedman swap (full length, don't remember the part # off the top of my head) ) headers are also a no fuss bolt in. Only real issues are choice of intake as in intake height affecting air cleaner size for hood clearance, and a few of the plugs are a pita to change. Otherwise all stock motor mounts/etc work just fine with no issues. C4 (case fill) and either 3 or 4 speed toploaders also are no issue with the Hedman headers as long as you use the small 157 bell/flywheel or flex. Cooling it is an issue all by itself. If you opt for stock size V8 radiator, DEFINITELY spend the money for a good radiator, ECP, Fluidyne, with shroud if planning on stock type fan. Ebay rads won't cut it. I'm sure some will get mad at me for saying this but doing a 351w swap, I normally use a 67 390 radiator. Some core support trimming is needed to open it up for full airflow but once rad is mounted, it appears factory stock to 90% of the car show gazers. You do need to change water pump to L69-later drivers side inlet as well as timing tab but again, all factory parts. Only those that know, know.
Sounds like you tend to base your ideas on word of mouth . . . .Entirely false. I have a 351w in my 1965 fastback and used JBA mid length swap headers and the fit is perfect. I've also heard nothing but good things about the JBA headers in general, especially the swap headers and that's why I went with them. Did you ever try using JBA or is your opinion based on word of mouth?
Third... my eBay Champion Cooling radiator "cuts it." It's a 3 row aluminum radiator with a 16" electric fan and it never goes over 205 degrees. I just use the stock size/dimension radiator and have had great success with it so far. Also, the Champion Radiators come with a lifetime warranty.
Hmmm everywhere I've seen people have had extremely negative reviews on the Hedman headers not fitting, especially the one header tube that I mentioned that will hit the valve covers or brake booster and everyone else generally has great reviews with the JBA or even Hooker headers. I've attached the part number for you on the headers... spending 30 seconds looking at just the Summit website the general consensus is that the Hedman headers won't fit. Out of the 5 reviews on Summit, most complained that the header tube hits the engine valve covers or elsewhere and the only people that had much success had later cars like a 1969 or 1971 mustang and even they had to dimple them to get them to fit. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-88660 Basically every site from Summit to Amazon, Jegs, CJ's, the VMF site and so on all have the same complaint and that is they suck at fitment. Second, the OP has a 64.5 mustang, meaning that he likely has the early 1965 style motor mounts and brackets.... sooooo when you say that his stock motor mounts and motor mount brackets will work I would say is extremely misleading. Third, since he has a 260 that worked in the car before with the previous radiator, the water pump outlet should be going towards the passenger side. Meaning that he could reuse that and either get a different radiator, if he wanted to upgrade, although not necessary, or even get a specialized radiator hose if he had the water pump and radiator tubes on the opposite sides. Lastly, it doesn't get crazy hot here in Seattle but with my aluminum radiator and electric fan setup it never goes above 200 degrees, even when it's in the 90's here in Seattle. I don't remember what temperature T-stat I'm using but staying at 200 degrees or so and less, even when it's almost 100 degrees out is just fine and that way you wouldn't have to cut out the radiator core support. Also, when you use the larger size radiator you have to either get a different style battery tray that runs essentially north/south as opposed to the 65/66 style that runs east/west or move it to the trunk. Finally, aluminum radiators, like aluminum heads are going to dissipate the heat much better than a stock type radiator that's made of brass/copper.Maybe you didn't read what I said? Or maybe I didn't state it to your understanding? My points. No need for any aftermarket engine mounts. Factory stuff works fine. Guess I should have been more clear in saying to use the 66 mounts. My bad. On the headers. I'll get the numbers but EVERY one I've done with the Hedman swap full length headers (1-5/8" tubes) fit perfectly. No denting, nothing. Trick Flow, E-Heads, Factory iron heads. Never mentioned water pumps being different sizes. Just mentioned the right or left inlet and why using a 67 390 radiator needed drivers side? Never had a stock 289 rad no matter brand cool as well as the 390 rad. Period. The cars I've built with that conversion run at t-stat temp no matter idling in 100 degree traffic or running WOT down an interstate. As with everything, YMMV.
Quick answer for you. I actually had to make a warranty claim because my first Champion radiator was leaking slightly. It started about 5 years after I initially purchased it. I called up Champion, explained the situation to them and they sent me a new replacement no questions asked. So a warranty does have some meaning/value to me. Second, the Champion for $150 is a 2 row and doesn't include the fan. The cheapest Champion 3 row on eBay is $200 and in the kit it's $237.95. Also with the ECP, I couldn't find if they're actually made in the USA or not? The Champion radiators are. Also, Champion radiators make a 2 row so if you wanted to go that route you always could. They have options to do a 2, 3 or 4 row radiator and they even make oversized ones for a 1965/66 now, which they didn't when I first bought mine. Also, they claim that their radiators will cool a minimum of 450hp on up to over 750hp, depending on the style and amount of rows you buy. Champion recommended for my particular application that I go with the 3 row and so I did. I'd do yourself a favor and check the forums as there are lots of happy Champion radiator owners and they have many tons of positive reviews. And the ECP radiators say they have a lifetime warranty "unless specified." So I guess that doesn't mean squat to you either? Lastly, the only time I've had my engine go above 200 degrees was when the thermostat relay fuse blew. So it went up to about 205 degrees until I drove it back home and replaced the fuse, now I have spares in the glovebox. Never since then has it really gone above 180-190 degrees. Although I can't be certain that my temperature gauge is dead on balls accurate. :smile2:I just have a quick question for you. The Champion 3 row is what, $150 bucks? It has 3 3/8" rows with 1/2" spacing. Holds about 1-1/2 gallons of coolant by itself. An ECP is about $180 bucks. It has 2 1" rows spaced 3/8" apart and has several more rows than the Champion. It hold just over 2 gallons by itself. Also has denser fins for better dissipation. Is it worth the $30 extra? Warranties, except for returning the item, mean squat when the product doesn't work as well as it's claimed. Having an engine with a 180 stat run at 180 is higher priority to me than saving a few bucks to watch the temp fluctuate 20+ degrees. Hope that makes sense.
Well until I actually buy something it's rather difficult to have an opinion on the matter so word of mouth is something I have to kind of listen to. That being said.... I have JBA headers and I, as well as just about everyone else who has purchased them, have nothing but praises for the brand. And when you generalize and say that basically all swap headers fitment is "iffy at best" that is providing someone with inaccurate or misleading information. Because they might take what you say as cast in stone, when there are literally dozens of other members on here and other sites that have nothing but the best to say about JBA headers, especially the swap ones for the OP's particular application. Second, I've seen some research done out there and watched more than a couple videos on the whole full length vs mid length headers vs shorty header videos in terms of hp lost and it's like what 10hp maybe that you lose? Aka, not enough to really notice a difference. I'd also rather have mid length headers as opposed to full length, especially in a street application, because full length headers will drag on every speed bump and imperfection in the road. I had a 302 in my 65 fastback before with Hooker full length super comps and they would drag over every speed bump and uneven driveway possible. No thanks. And demeaning attitude? Because I disagree with you and think you're giving inaccurate or misleading information to someone? Not really. And that's cool you built your car in your sig... I built the one in my sig, so what's your point? I'm not trying to start an argument but it really frustrates me when you say something like you did about the swap headers not fitting, when that is entirely inaccurate. You know why it upsets me? Because before I did the article I posted and linked, there were only a few threads and nothing as comprehensive and detailed. Some like you said I should try the Hedman headers and a bunch of people gave their opinions on a ton of different aspects to the build and a ton of them were also wrong. It cause me to take more time on the build, spend more money buying and shipping back parts and wasted a lot of my time with parts that didn't fit. If I can give some of the knowledge that I learned to the OP it might help him out in the long run, and when you say something that is inaccurate or misleading I'm going to call you out on it, not for my sake but for the OP's.Sounds like you tend to base your ideas on word of mouth . . . .
I stated my opinion based upon MY experiences using several types of full tube headers. I've never had a desire to run mid length headers as they are performance limiting.
So what's with the demeaning attitude???
BTW the car in my sig is also a PA legally licensed fully capable street car built entirely by me so don't belittle me about your knowledge of all things 351w in a 65/66.
Have a good day.