[WreckRod]

I think the TBI kits don’t really make much sense in terms of going to EFI. It’s just an electronically controlled carburetor. I think if you’re going to go the route of EFI then doing sequential port injection is the only thing that really makes sense. The TBI kits I think give EFI a bad rep.

 

[stangman69]

…speaking of FiTech…in case anyone was interested, I saw this pop up…

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[maxoverclock]

Is this a daily driver car or just an occasional fun drive around town? The climate where you live will also affect this, are there big temp changes there? Will you potentially be driving throughout the year, not just during sunny 75*+ weather? I daily drove my coupe and never had a major issue in over 4 years with the efi swap, sunny weather to freezing and covered in snow.

The Sniper setup asks like 3 questions and then it self learns and adjusts for any condition. I didn't have to mess with it ever after the initial install. It automatically adjusted for temp changes , the engine never missing a beat.

I can't say the same for most carb vehicles I've had. Maybe I didn't have the $800 super carbs professionally setup by a tuner, maybe that's what I needed.

The cost has come down considerably in the last few years too. A decent kit can be had for under a grand. The fuel system is cake. You need a fuel pump and possibly a regulator, or there are tanks with those options built in now.

Heck I think there was a Holley Sniper kit in the classifieds, complete with fuel system either now or not long ago.

Totally agree. I recommend plugging into a computer to detail you tune.. You can dial everything in, especially if you have a dual sync ignition. Here is my timing map and A/F map from sniper program for example...

 

[W427]

Personally I'll never go EFI again. … Instantly had issues and ...insisted I send it back. … Over a month later I get it back. New issues. Again, send it back.… Over a month later I get it back again.

This is a sad but good example of quality control, not pros and cons of carbs vs EFI. The lesson is about the brand, not the system.

I think the TBI kits don’t really make much sense in terms of going to EFI. It’s just an electronically controlled carburetor.

Far from it and a misconception of the systems and their ability to control and self-correct with data. Roughly 80 to 90% of the benefits surrounding EFI can be had in TBI (depending on purpose and goals for the project), with certain goals met better by port injection, although many of those are never used by owners, so TBI is popular in "bang for the buck" and simplifying of installation.

If carbs are what you know, then you can get what you need from them for many project goals. They can work surprisingly well, but simply take more skill and work to get most of the way there, but simply can't do everything EFI is capable-of, or as well, with the many ways it can be manipulated. An example is @maxoverclock 's tables, which are basic, easy and running well, and now ready to begin advanced tuning to improve power everywhere you want it, and economy where you don't need max power. Efficiency everywhere, so it's powerful and responsive or squeaking fuel, one or the other or both, all the time under all conditions, seasonal fuel changes, weather, etc.

There are many factors at-play, but TBI can have an edge in power potential over MPFI, which has advantage in other areas, likewise for carbs. Here is an F1 racing engine, where they had the resources to do fueling any way they liked, but went with this TBI/ITB setup:

 

[beng]

I originally purchased my Holley 650 double pumper about 15 years ago when the price difference from EFI and carb was greater. That being said the carb has been pretty flawless save from one vapor lock event in 15 years. I thought about “upgrading” to efi but I had read enough stories about people having a bad ecu and replacements being back ordered that I decided to keep what I have but improve it. So I’ve installed an AFR gauge to help with tuning and I bought a bypass regulator etc to make a return fuel system to help ease my mind of vapor lock on those 90+ degree days.

For me it was a decision based on what I can troubleshoot and repair on the side of the road along with not wanting to lose the nostalgia of having to deal with a carbs personality. The day my 10 year old was helping me tune the carb this past summer I knew I had made the right choice. He’ll be one of a few his generation who have even touched one probably!

 

[WreckRod]

This is a sad but good example of quality control, not pros and cons of carbs vs EFI. The lesson is about the brand, not the system.
Far from it and a misconception of the systems and their ability to control and self-correct with data. Roughly 80 to 90% of the benefits surrounding EFI can be had in TBI (depending on purpose and goals for the project), with certain goals met better by port injection, although many of those are never used by owners, so TBI is popular in "bang for the buck" and simplifying of installation.

If carbs are what you know, then you can get what you need from them for many project goals. They can work surprisingly well, but simply take more skill and work to get most of the way there, but simply can't do everything EFI is capable-of, or as well, with the many ways it can be manipulated. An example is @maxoverclock 's tables, which are basic, easy and running well, and now ready to begin advanced tuning to improve power everywhere you want it, and economy where you don't need max power. Efficiency everywhere, so it's powerful and responsive or squeaking fuel, one or the other or both, all the time under all conditions, seasonal fuel changes, weather, etc.

There are many factors at-play, but TBI can have an edge in power potential over MPFI, which has advantage in other areas, likewise for carbs. Here is an F1 racing engine, where they had the resources to do fueling any way they liked, but went with this TBI/ITB setup:

To be more specific, the cheaper, all in one packages where everything including the electronics is housed within the faux carburetor body are the kits that I’m referring to. Not that there aren’t plenty of ways to skin the cat.

 

[Huskinhano]

It’s all bout individuality. I went carb on my GT40P swap. My intend was low budget quick turnaround period looking motor. I have no issue with someone going EFI. However I think if I went EFI it would be port EFI. TBI is such ancient format. Go EFI for the benefits go all in for a modern design.

 

[W427]

TBI is such ancient format.

LOL… so instead of 1980s+ TBI tech, you went with 1880s+ carburetor tech, and called TBI ancient.

 

[DonP]

I chose EFI and AOD as I planned for my Mustang to be my regular Daily Driver and use it for commuting. I have no regrets on going with the stock Ford EEC-IV EFI system.


Reading about so many problems others have experienced with aftermarket systems I would be hesitant to go that route. If not an OEM conversion, I’d probably just run a carburetor any future classics.

 

[Mesozoic]

The EEC-V from the Explorer is a great idea! If you're trying to save money, I think it would be the cheapest route, without a doubt and offers all the tuning capability you need if you obtain a TwEECer RT device. Mike Glover has developed software called CalEdit (which in its early days was sorely lacking in capability) which in its current state supports strategies employed by almost all late model EEC-V computers.

The advantage to the last edition of the EEC-V software used to run the 5.0L engines (probably the REAC4 strategy, EQE3 catch code or similar) is that it benefits from decades of refinement. It just works - the engine starts up authoritatively, warms up smoothly and can be driven without issue even when cold, does not rely on a barometric sensor of any kind like the older EEC-IV computers did and even qualifies the vehicles they were installed in for LEV (low emission vehicle) status.

With TwEECer installed you can alter spark tables, fuel maps, MAF sensor transfer functions, ECT sensor transfer functions, injector data and even enable dual independent fan control for your e-fans. I'm using said computer for my '66 GT restomod although my engine is the original 289 significantly hopped up beyond stock.

 

[stangman69]

LOL… so instead of 1980s+ TBI tech, you went with 1880s+ carburetor tech, and called TBI ancient.

I think @Huskinhano's point was if you're going to go EFI, don't hassle with old tech like TBI and just do it right and go with a MPFI style system. Clearly he's not opposed to old school if it works given his choice of a carb.

 

[ArizonaGT]

@W427

Thank you for sharing so much of your knowledge, experience, and wisdom. I learn something new every time you post 😎

 

[W427]

I think @Huskinhano's point was if you're going to go EFI, don't hassle with old tech like TBI and just do it right …

I got that, but then jumping to MPFI ignores options that may fit a specific project better. That's part of the point, that "doing it right" does not mean only one way or method for anything or everything. It's not a "hassle" (and is typically easier) if it serves the purposes and goals best. And of course, I couldn't pass-up the irrelevant "ancient" comment.

The EEC-V from the Explorer is a great idea! If you're trying to save money, I think it would be the cheapest route, …

With aftermarket fully-configurable and tunable ECMs under $200, EEC plus the box and software is "cheap" but not cheapest (if that's one of the project goals); nor can EEC do things aftermarket can, if those are again on your goals list. Different pros and cons to judge. This always circles-around to project goals, examining options and avoiding assumptions that can limit project success. You can never win an argument that something is always best (how this thread started), but you can use what checks the most goals boxes for the win. ☑

Thank you for sharing so much of your knowledge, experience, and wisdom. I learn something new every time you post 😎

Thanks for that, and I hope it's useful. I have always felt that you don't have to learn everything for yourself, and the sharing of info is one way to avoid making the same mistakes others have. Please, learn from my mistakes, as I paid a lot for them. 🤬 VMF has a tone of doing this for each other. Having learned so much from others was invaluable for me, and I can't botch my karma by holding it back from others along the way. That's my thing.

 

[stangman69]

I got that, but then jumping to MPFI ignores options that may fit a specific project better. That's part of the point, that "doing it right" does not mean only one way or method for anything or everything. It's not a "hassle" (and is typically easier) if it serves the purposes and goals best. And of course, I couldn't pass-up the irrelevant "ancient" comment.
With aftermarket fully-configurable and tunable ECMs under $200, EEC plus the box and software is "cheap" but not cheapest (if that's one of the project goals); nor can EEC do things aftermarket can, if those are again on your goals list. Different pros and cons to judge. This always circles-around to project goals, examining options and avoiding assumptions that can limit project success. You can never win an argument that something is always best (how this thread started), but you can use what checks the most goals boxes for the win. ☑
Thanks for that, and I hope it's useful. I have always felt that you don't have to learn everything for yourself, and the sharing of info is one way to avoid making the same mistakes others have. Please, learn from my mistakes, as I paid a lot for them. 🤬 VMF has a tone of doing this for each other. Having learned so much from others was invaluable for me, and I can't botch my karma by holding it back from others along the way. That's my thing.

Absolutely agree. End goals should drive the decision. In the OP's case, it sounded like he had a late model motor and his goal was 280-300HP. That should be achievable with a cam swap and running the stock computer with a tune. I'd trim the stock harness down and run in in standalone and get it tuned to delete the secondary O2 sensors. That would be the cheapest way to use the motor, harness, ECM that he can source from the donor vehicle. Swap the cam and then take it somewhere for a custom tune OR mail the ECM in.

Cheers!

 

[cliffm]

Not debating the awesomeness of EFI (been playing with Harley's for years!) but the simplicity of a carb, especially my preferred "manual choke" models, is hard to beat. That being said, a few years ago, I swapped out an Edelbrock 1405 with an AVS2 1915 and all I can say is WOW! The improved down-leg boosters are almost EFI smooth in the transition points.

Seriously, after adjusting idle screw (due to VooDoo 268 FT cam in my 347ci build) I've done nothing from out-of-the-box settings, its been great, and improved my MPG as well. Still using a "vintage" Edelbrock F4B (cobra clone) intake feeding 351W heads with 195/160 SS valves. Its a very "torquey" motor spinning a Speedway Motor 9" 3.25 helical gear drive through Tremec 3550 5spd.

Edelbrock.com: Edelbrock AVS2 Carburetors - The Future of Carburetion

Edelbrock Performance Carburetors are made in the USA & available in 500-800 CFM rating for AMC, Buick, Chevy, Chrysler, Ford, Oldsmobile, & Pontiac engines.

www.edelbrock.com

 

[Mesozoic]

It's undebatable that unless you get one of those Accufab carb spacer styled throttle bodies, you'll be drastically altering the appearance of the engine with your EFI setup. For some, this is an issue because some folks are definitely into the carb'd look... I totally understand that. From that perspective, many of the carb replacement TBI units do work fairly well. If you're going for max effort and optimization for the engine, then the MPFI is the next step - nobody has developed a head with direct injection retrofit yet that I'm aware (that would bring things right up to the latest tech!).

I have a friend with an early Bronco that opted to go with what I think is a Mass-Flo EFI setup which places the MAF inside the throttle body bore of the carb'd intake. It conceals the MAF very effectively, but we've had some issues tuning around it. Regardless, it produces around 650 hp and runs well enough, so I'd say if that system is still available, you'd be able to run MPFI and retain the "carb'd" appearance as well.

In the end, it's your choice whether you enjoy spilling fuel all over your hands while removing fuel bowls from carbs and altering jets. That stuff is all adjusted using the keyboard with EFI, but for some the computer software can be a challenge in itself too... I definitely appreciate the frustration that surrounds that.

 

[Nailbender]

I originally purchased my Holley 650 double pumper about 15 years ago when the price difference from EFI and carb was greater. That being said the carb has been pretty flawless save from one vapor lock event in 15 years. I thought about “upgrading” to efi but I had read enough stories about people having a bad ecu and replacements being back ordered that I decided to keep what I have but improve it. So I’ve installed an AFR gauge to help with tuning and I bought a bypass regulator etc to make a return fuel system to help ease my mind of vapor lock on those 90+ degree days.

For me it was a decision based on what I can troubleshoot and repair on the side of the road along with not wanting to lose the nostalgia of having to deal with a carbs personality. The day my 10 year old was helping me tune the carb this past summer I knew I had made the right choice. He’ll be one of a few his generation who have even touched one probably!

I'm all in on Multi port EFI but think those not pulling G's could do well with a carb and a return style fuel system in eliminating the vapor lock that happens with ethanol blended "street" gas. I'm a big fan of in tank fuel pumps as well. I wish I had done a little more tinkering with an old 650 DP I had from back in the day before I sold it to a forum member just to see what was possible.

EFI when it works is awesome though!

 

[teal95]

I started with carbs in my classics, learning as I went. Then I started playing with EFI when I was in college, learning enough that for most of my working life I've been an engine calibrator for one of the OEMs. (I started with an EEC-Tuner, got one of the first batch of twEECers, and now also have a QuarterHorse, along with chips for when I'm done playing. I've been around it long enough that I was involved in cracking some of the EECs.)

So anything I build at this point gets EFI, specifically port injection and MAF.

 

[Mesozoic]

I was sad to see that Moates has shutdown.

 

[W427]

So anything I build at this point gets EFI, specifically port injection and MAF.

And we have circled back to what you are comfortable with. I wouldn't suggest limiting one's self to port and MAF, but on the other hand, if that's your comfort zone you'll likely do a better job with it. I like a full smorgasbord of options, and if the best-fit system for the project goals isn't my thing, I'll consider jumping in to expand my horizons. That's not for everyone, and not even me sometimes. Do your thing!