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Sur
Thankfully sites like HiPo Mustang forum, ConcoursMustang forum, SAAC forum, Boss302 forum take fraud and enabling fraud seriously, it is a reflection on the members ethics. --- Only on VMF do I see posts from individuals like you (DonP) and Woodchuck going as far as giving a seller that enables fraud suggestions on how to go about doing it better :sick:
that’s fine. How much of a car can be replaced and it not be fraud ?
 

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Sur

that’s fine. How much of a car can be replaced and it not be fraud ?
In most states basically 100% of it. What denotes fraud is often misunderstood. The purpose of a vin is to identify the car. A title is a piece of paper that the state uses to show you own the vehicle. A cars value is determined by the car and it's condition not by it's legal identifier.

Take a pick up truck. You replace the frame then you replace the bed still same truck under the vin. Then if you have to replace the cab due to excessive damage it's still the same truck though you will usually have to have your state guys come out and verify it and they will rivet the old vin to the new cab dash.
But depends on the state. Some go by the frame some go by the cab (depending on weight class). They all allow different things.

Another way to look at it is in the business of buildings or tanks. Say you have one somewhere that you want to tear down and rebuild and you are not allowed to permit a new one exactly like the old one. So you replace a wall. Then the other walls. Then the roof a while later. it's not a new building you just repaired every part of the building/tank over time.
Or look at it in an organic sense. The cells in your body today are not the same ones that you were born with yet you are still considered the same person even though you are a copy of a copy of a copy etc.


I find the conversations on the whole what code is this and it had this combination of options to be hilarious and even funnier when you see guys fighting about it at car shows or swapmeets... Course these are usually the guys that like to say how many "original miles" are on their car. Are there some other kind of miles, Aftermarket Miles or complementary dealer bonus negative miles?
Reminds me of two guys at the train show years ago. They had a big switching yard and were arguing about how to get a car from one spot to another to the point they were yelling. I regret not reaching out picking the car up and moving it myself and saying the aliens did it for you. It would have been worth getting kicked out of the place... Basically it's not that important in the whole scheme of things.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)
Sur

that’s fine. How much of a car can be replaced and it not be fraud ?
Purchasing a title on eBay and attaching/stamping the VIN on that title (VIN switching) to another Mustang or a Mustang built from parts is ILLEGAL. Call the N.C.I.B., F.B.I., or your state's auto L.E. if you need confirmation of it being illegal. You can also ask hypothetical VIN fraud switching / tampering questions and see how far you get.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
6F09K174291
1966 Ford Mustang Fastback K code body paperwork document original | eBay
Sold for $700.00 (Jan 7, 2020) by lornfornwal0 , Carlisle, Pennsylvania
Description:
"1966 Ford Mustang Fastback document paperwork original clean and clear , ready to go

easy registration all documents will come signed and notarized with a signed and notarized bill of sale ..
email with needs

have many years/makes/models to choose from..
"

Title paperwork for:

6F09K329187
1966 Ford Mustang Fastback K code body paperwork document original | eBay

Sold for $700.00 (Jan 24, 2020) by lornfornwal0 , Carlisle, Pennsylvania
Description:
"1966 Ford Mustang Fastback document paperwork original clean and clear , ready to go

easy registration all documents will come signed and notarized with a signed and notarized bill of sale ..
email with needs

have many years/makes/models to choose from..
"

6F08K194386
1966 Ford Mustang convertible k code body paperwork document original | eBay
Sold for $700.00 (Jan 24, 2020) by lornfornwal0 , Carlisle, Pennsylvania
Description:
"1966 Ford Mustang Fastback document paperwork original clean and clear , ready to go

easy registration all documents will come signed and notarized with a signed and notarized bill of sale ..
email with needs

have many years/makes/models to choose from..
"


The above brings total from one seller to 8 different titles only for K-codes.
 

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If someone buys one of those Mustang shells that are sold buy one or two manufactures, do they have a VIN stamped on them? If someone used one of these titles and stamps the VIN number on the shell in all the right places, and it somehow gets registered, the hipo engine won't be in the car that make it a real K code. If someone happens to have a Hipo motor to go along with his reproduction, most likely the date code on the motor won't match the assembly date of the rest of the car. Most people who share are passion for our Mustangs are savvy enough to know the difference between the varieties of Mustangs that Ford made. But still, there are fraudsters out there or ignorant sellers who try to pass off something that it is not. When I was looking for my car, I looked for a year before I found the Mustang that I bought 2003. I passed onone that looked totally restored for $18K because the seller who was selling a 65 C Code, was trying to pass the car off saying the engine was a 289 Hipo. Sure it had all the right decals on the air filter, but it still had a 2100 carb and the standard balancer. I thought that maybe I would find more problems with his "ground up" restoration, simply because he misrepresented the motor that was in the car.
 

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If the powers that be in legal circles don't do anything about this, at least EvenFlow has done his due diligence for the rest of us in posting the vins...so am I to understand that if I google one of those it will pop up here at good ole VMF and a potential buyer would be seeing it? I assume with your passion for this subject you contacted the appropriate law enforcement agency and they were unable to get involved? NICB, PA state police theft dept, FBI ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 · (Edited)
If someone buys one of those Mustang shells that are sold buy one or two manufactures, do they have a VIN stamped on them? If someone used one of these titles and stamps the VIN number on the shell in all the right places, and it somehow gets registered, the hipo engine won't be in the car that make it a real K code. If someone happens to have a Hipo motor to go along with his reproduction, most likely the date code on the motor won't match the assembly date of the rest of the car. Most people who share are passion for our Mustangs are savvy enough to know the difference between the varieties of Mustangs that Ford made. But still, there are fraudsters out there or ignorant sellers who try to pass off something that it is not. When I was looking for my car, I looked for a year before I found the Mustang that I bought 2003. I passed onone that looked totally restored for $18K because the seller who was selling a 65 C Code, was trying to pass the car off saying the engine was a 289 Hipo. Sure it had all the right decals on the air filter, but it still had a 2100 carb and the standard balancer. I thought that maybe I would find more problems with his "ground up" restoration, simply because he misrepresented the motor that was in the car.
Some points to keep in mind:

Plenty of people will pay a premium for a K-code coupe, fastback, or convertible, with or without a "matching" block. The "matching" blocks can also be sourced.

Take for example a guy buying his first classic car, his dream car, a 1965 or 1966 Mustang and has no experience verifying originality. Titles and Marti door tags are pretty convincing.

Most "inspectors" nowadays are looking at condition, not small details/date codes known primarily to early Mustang collectors.

I could go on for pages on why those titles are a serious problem, however I would be writing a Committing K-code Fraud for Dummies guide (that could be used by criminals) and I'm not going there.
 

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This isn't about technicalities, or loopholes, or percentages.

This is all just about ethics.

Yes, technically, you can have a car that has essentially been re-bodied (floors, rockers, rails, aprons, quarters, fenders, doors, roof, etc.) and re-engined/trannied/reared, yet it STILL legitimately resides under the same original VIN # and title. Technically that's correct.

But ethically, that car's market value and intrinsic value is considerably diminished compared to a similarly-restored car that retains most of its original body/frame and driveline. And likewise, ethically, there is an obligation for the seller of the re-bodied and re-everythinged car to DISCLOSE those realities to potential buyers. Because that information is critical towards the fair value of the car.

Unfortunately, ethics are not guaranteed, and are not required by law.

Selling titles under the guise of "display" (let's be real, no one is paying $500 - $700 bucks to hang an old title on the wall), also can run on the shiny side of the law, but the filthy side of ethics.

But hell... It's been this way in the collector car hobby ever since Chevy introduced fuel injection LOL!!!

Caveat Emptor folks!
 

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If someone buys one of those Mustang shells that are sold buy one or two manufactures, do they have a VIN stamped on them?
No, at that point they are a simple replacement part. if you took one of those and built it out correctly it would be easy to have more money in it than a genuine K car:love:See the Revology cars that cost more than most Shelbys.

BUT, with the new regs from several years ago that allow for small car mfgrs to produce I think 50 cars per year, they assign their own VIN on an MSO that could have a K incorporated into it. If its home built you get a state assigned number.

Maybe @69bossnine knows if those Dynacorn shells have any identifiable marks that could be found in the future.
 

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No, at that point they are a simple replacement part. if you took one of those and built it out correctly it would be easy to have more money in it than a genuine K car:love:See the Revology cars that cost more than most Shelbys.

BUT, with the new regs from several years ago that allow for small car mfgrs to produce I think 50 cars per year, they assign their own VIN on an MSO that could have a K incorporated into it. If its home built you get a state assigned number.

Maybe @69bossnine knows if those Dynacorn shells have any identifiable marks that could be found in the future.
I'm honestly not that familiar with the Dynacorn shells... We've sold a few on request, but we don't carry them, and I've never gone over one with an eye towards detail. I know that the Revology finished products are quite impressive, but the whole reproduction body thing isn't my gig... I'm a classic car fan at heart, meaning there's gotta be something fairly old somewhere in there.. ;)
 

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Some points to keep in mind:

Plenty of people will pay a premium for a K-code coupe, fastback, or convertible, with or without a "matching" block. The "matching" blocks can also be sourced.

Take for example a guy buying his first classic car, his dream car, a 1965 or 1966 Mustang and has no experience verifying originality. Titles and Marti door tags are pretty convincing.

Most "inspectors" nowadays are looking at condition, not small details/date codes known primarily to early Mustang collectors.

I could go on for pages on why those titles are a serious problem, however I would be writing a Committing K-code Fraud for Dummies guide (that could be used by criminals) and I'm not going there.
A true K code car will be worth more than a non K code even without engine to most people not just people that don't know what they are buying. Kinda like G,Z,R and Q codes. for later mustangs. These cars can be made whole by replacing the engine. It wont be worth as much as matching numbers but still worth a lot more than base models. I think if anyone sees a fraud K code or title for sale they should share the link and vin. They do it for the bosses at boss 302 site. Then when googled it makes a savvy buyer aware that there might be some bogusness to it,
 
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