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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I waited until I had it up and running with the bugs worked out before posting so if anyone is planning on doing it, they'll have all my info ready to go and not waiting on me. Sorry for the poor cell phone quality, it's mostly to show it actually running. It's taken me a while mostly because I'm not home during the week. it's been a little here and there. It runs really well. The specs are a stock Mustang 91 5.0 used roller cam, used Weiand Stealth, a used yard shed Edelbrock off ebay, off the shelf long tube headers and used Ford Cobra 1.72 roller rockers and a points distributor for now. Yes, off the shelf regular, unmodified long tube headers. I'm not going to post to much more tonight. I just wanted to kick it off. I'll be posting a fair amount of info and photos. While I realize this isn't the first one done, just the most current there still is some new info as no two swaps are the same. Feel free to ask any questions.


Here's what I started with. A 97 Mountainer GT40P with less the 40K miles.

 

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Congratulations! The GT-40p runs well with the Fox 5.0 HO cam. It feels good, doesn't it? I like the way my '68 goes with a similar combo.

Make sure you've got a steel gear on the distributor. The vintage (flat tappet) distributor gear is cast iron and is not compatible with the roller cam. It will ruin the cam. I bought a new 1985 Mustang 5.0 HO Duraspark from Rock Auto for about $50 (cheaper than buying the steel gear alone & I already had an extra ignition module).
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Congratulations! The GT-40p runs well with the Fox 5.0 HO cam. It feels good, doesn't it? I like the way my '68 goes with a similar combo.

Make sure you've got a steel gear on the distributor. The vintage (flat tappet) distributor gear is cast iron and is not compatible with the roller cam. It will ruin the cam. I bought a new 1985 Mustang 5.0 HO Duraspark from Rock Auto for about $50 (cheaper than buying the steel gear alone & I already had an extra ignition module).
Eventually I'll be swapping in a new Autozone 85 Mustang 5.0 Duraspark to trigger a Crane CD box. For the time being I did swap the gear. I used a MSD Melonized gear from Autozone, $30. Most distributors sold already use a Melonize gear. It's pretty much the default gear because it'll work with any cam other then the 8620 billet steel used on mechanical roller cams. The Autozone distributor was $60, pretty nicely made unit! Comes with a nice brass terminal points type cap as well as the newer 2 piece cap with aluminum terminals. I'll be going into this topic as well.
 

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Hey Tom, congratulations on getting the GT40P going! Did you do any work to the heads during the build? Are you planning upon changing anything now that you've had a chance to see how it runs?

david
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hey Tom, congratulations on getting the GT40P going! Did you do any work to the heads during the build? Are you planning upon changing anything now that you've had a chance to see how it runs?

david

Dave, outside off a .540" spring kit from Alex's parts and a set of 1.72 rockers the heads are stock. I was going to install a E303 cam that someone gave to me free, that's why the springs. Some where the cam got wet and rusted enough. I couldn't decide on aftermarket cam so I just bought a used 5.0 cam to get back on track. I low balled someone on the rocker, he hesitantly took my offer. Over all the combination of the 5.0 cam and rockers appears to be a pretty good combination!

I don't really have any other plans for the motor. It's reliable, sound stock for that sleeper vibe and runs well. If I had a set of 3.25's instead of the 2.8's I'm sure this would scream. Even with the 2.8's it doesn't seem to be a slouch. I need other parts on the car before any more real motor upgrades.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Distributor gear

OK, there's a lot of confusion on this topic and I'm still not 100% sure. I recommend you talk to whom ever you buy a distributor or camshaft from on exactly what to use. As far as what I understand is the following. Distributor gears come in regular cast iron, composite, brass, steel and Melonite. A composite will work on anything but it's not cheap. Brass is used on billet cams but wears. Steel is steel and is for billet hydraulic cams, not mechanical roller cams. Melonite is a chemical treatment that is suppose to make the surface about 20 times harder.

Camshafts can be made from several materials. A flat tappet cam is cast iron. Ford factory roller cams are billet steel. A fully machined blank made from 5150 alloy. Most aftermarket hydraulic roller cams are not billet. They are what is called "SADI" or Selectively hardened Austempered Ductile Iron. It's a cast blank of ductile iron. The individual lobes are induction hardened. I was seriously thinking of buying a new cam after I found that the E303 cam I was going to use which was given to me had gotten wet and rusted pretty badly at some point. I was going to buy a Howard's cam. I spoke with several techs over several weeks to see if there info was consistent on distributor gears. I was informed with their hydraulic roller cams I could use a plain cast iron gear just like a flat tappet cam. They said any SADI cam could use a cast iron gear no matter who makes the cam. I recall them saying that all the cam companies get their blanks from all the same places and there was something like 3 companies that make SADI cores. I know Crane also says you can use a cast iron gear on their hydraulic cams. Now I read one article where Comp Cams said you can use a cast iron gear on their and then read else where they were misquoted. On Corral there was a discussion about Comp Cams where some techs said you could use a cast iron gear and otheres said you couldn't. So check with who's cam you use is my adivice.


Poking around on the net, I ran across a article by MSD I believe. Melonite gears are apparently the default material of distributor manufacturers now for the most part. It will or is suppose to work on cast iron, SADI or 5150 hydraulic roller cams. It will not work on mechanical roller cams as they are 8620 which is a lot harder. So with that info I spoke with a tech from MSD and was assured that I could use their Melonite gear on a Ford 5150 factory billet cam. I also spoke with a tech from Ford Motorsport who confirmed the same info. In both cases I was very specific in my questioning to be certain. With that I used a MSD gear I bought from Autozone for $30 MSD Distributor Drive Gear - Perform 85832 - Read Reviews on MSD #85832

The gear should be a snug fit on the shaft. It comes with 1 hole. Once you locate the gear use the 1 hole as a guide. Use a drill press and I would highly recommend clamping the shaft so it won't walk around. I used a V block made of wood but the shaft moved a little bit and my hole ended up being slightly off but oh well. Below are two sets of instructions, 1 from Ford and 1 from MSD. The MSD version is easier IMO.



https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/FordInstShtM-12390-ABCDEFGHJKL.pdf

http://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/547-8583.pdf

Here's my distributor. Sorry for the fuzzy picture, it was a little hard to hold the caliper with one hand and take the picture with the other




I set mine almost exactly at 4.000"



My distributor had been rebuilt somewhere in it's past. What ever company did it installed a 2nd bushing



I do plan of pulling my distributor and inspect both the cam and distributor gears. I hope I may have explained some of the issues. In the end I would recommend checking with the cam and distributor company you use.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Fuel pump eccentrics and other bits

Today I was thinking it's been 31 years since a Mustang has been sold with a carburetor, no wonder a lot of guys working on Mustangs get goofed up on this. Since I finished up my GT40P swap it would be a good opportunity to cover it. Ford used 2 styles of fuel pump eccentrics. a 1 piece cast used from 1962 to about 1970. From 1970 and up a 2 piece eccentric. It really doesn't matter which one you use so long as you don't mix parts. I'm not really sure of any advantages between the two other then I've heard the 2 piece has less friction. The timing chain set must match the eccentric style.

Thanks to cmefly for providing me with the dimension of the 1 piece eccentric cam sprocket were it attaches to the cam. It's 3/4". The 2 piece cam sprocket is slightly thicker at 15/16" or .937" according to my chinese caliper.





The dowels are different as well. The 1 piece eccentric uses a dowel about1 3/8" or 1.385"



The 2 piece eccentric uses a shorter dowel at 1 1/8" or 1.124" to my caliper.



I have to apologize but I thought I had pictures of the eccentrics measured. Apparently I don't but I do have the measurements! The 1 piece, the best I could do after scraping the caked on oil off was .951". the 2 piece is shorter at .827" or 1/8" or .124" on my caliper.

The other topic is the front cover. Roller motors use 2 dowels to align the cover to the block that go over the 2 lower bolts



The older vintage cover does not.



It doesn't matter what you do. You can drill the vintage cover to use the dowels or choose not to, as I did. If you do not use the dowels you will need to partially install the balancer to center the cover.

Roller cam motors have the dip stick located on the left side and go through the block near the oil pan. This is a 3/8" hole. You could tap it for a 1/8" NPT and put a threaded plug in. I chose to use a Dorman plug. If you use the plugs when you install them use a punch that matches the outer diameter and not inside the cup. Punching it inside the cup will result in the plug folding in on itself and not seal well.



Next installation will cover exhaust manifolds and headers.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
More stuff!

Originally I was going to use a old 5.0 T5 flywheel I had. It needed to be cut. The clutch kit I had was a old Ford Motor Sport King Cobra clutch kit that was given to me. The last time I had a flywheel cut by the time it was resurfaced and a new ring gear put on I had quite a bit invested in a old, used flywheel. I don't think too many people ever thing a flywheel has a useful life span, they do. I believe Ford recommends no more then .060" be cut off a flywheel. The reason or a reason is, as you cut the flywheel, the pressure plate moves farther away from the clutch fork and the possibility that the travel of the clutch fork may not be enough to completely disengage the clutch. Plus the other is safety. The T5 flywheel was looking pretty narly with a lot of heat checking. I wasn't feeling the love. So it was time to buy a new wheel. I settled of a PRW SFI rated billet flywheel. For the cost of a decent set of work boots over a generic cast iron replacement I thought my feet were worth the extra cost. Why did I pick the PRW? Well the price to my door wasn't too bad. IIRC about $230. like I said it's a billet SFI rated. The ID number is etched on it. It has a sticker with the ID# and info for tech inspection. The main features I really liked was the fact that it uses a bolt on weight. It means I'm not married to a specific balance weight. I can use this wheel on a 0, 28 or 50 oz weight motor. it's drilled for every possible pressure plate you could use. Vintage 10" or 10.5" and late model 5.0 with dowels. PRW advertises that almost all contestants in the "Engine Masters" series uses PRW flywheels. I thought this was a BS claim. So I contacted Steve Dulchic who is the editor of Engine Masters magazine who hangs out on another forum I belong to. He confirmed that fact. He told me almost everyone uses a PRW flywheel and has never heard of a problem. He continued to say while he hasn't used one, he wouldn't hesitate to use one. Good enough for him, good enough for me! A couple last comments. I used a stock 66 through out bearing with the 5.0 clutch kit, no problems. On the ARP bolts for the flywheel, ARP wants you to use the blue Loctite.

I finished up the install with ARP hardware and a new block plate from NPD. A word of advise, the last 2 block plates after I had the engine in the car I discovered interference with the starter. Both times I had to take a 90* grinder with a carbide bit to open up the plate. Check before you tighten the flywheel for the final time.






I used a 5.0 roller pilot bearing. I seated it with a socket until I heard a dull thud.




For the balancer I used a new professional Products # 80007. Again with the theme I wasn't locked into a specfic engine balance. It uses a bolt on weight. It has 3 sets of timing marks and it is drill for both the early 3 bolt pulley and 70 & later 4 bolt. It's pretty much fool proof. If it doesn't work, you don't have a SBF. Let's face it why take a chance on a old balancer? The price wasn't anymore then a generic replacement. Sorry I don't have a photo but here's a ebay link

Professional Products 80007 6.4" SB Ford Harmonic Balancer Damper 50 oz SBF 302 | eBay


I had limited time to install the motor. I was trying to have as much done before as possible. I had a rebuilt alternator and new alternator harness, all brackets cleaned and painted and so on. I knew with the P heads the exhaust may be a little issue. I did not have time to install headers and do exhaust work. So my plan was to run stock exhaust manifolds until the winter when the car would be laid up for the winter. K code manifolds will work just fine. Early 70's 302 Mustang manifold will work no problems with the plug angle. The only issue with them is they will not work with power steering cars as the outlet dumps right were the PS ram is.



In stock form the stock A&C code manifold won't work or not too well. With a little time with a die grinder it will work great. Here is a stock manifold by the problem cylinder, #8. The flange is pretty much covering the plug. Maybe if you intalled the plug first and used a very compact 90* boot.



But doing some grinding, it will work quite well!









The only problem with these manifolds, they will NOT work if you retain the factory Z bar. The problem is with the engine pivot bracket sold for roller cam swap motors. The stock manifolds are very tight to the block and the inner stud on the manifold occupies the same space as the bracket. If you use a T5 with a cable or a C4 there shouldn't be any issues.

So discovering this problem I had no other options but to push the car into the garage by myself and start a lengthy header project since I'm only home on weekends. I'm running MAC longtubes. a little tight but not bad fitting. To save you about the dozen times I had the driver's side in and out. The #5 tube slips in after the main part is in. Basically I installed the main part of the header. You will have to hold the header up either with a helper or some string. Install and tighten cylinder #'s 6,7&8. Once the header is in, you will not be able to get the plugs either in or or out! Use platinum and electronic ignition and you shouldn't have to worry too much about plugs for a long time. I did have some fitment issues with the equalizer bar, I had to take a socket and dimple the tube. I also had to slightly flatten the side of one tube by the frame rail. I also had issues with the bracket for the engine side equalizer stud used in roller cam swaps. I had to whittle it down quite a bit!





The headers, the clutch linkage fits just fine








Tube needs to be flattened slightly



Clearance for the equalizer shaft.



Installed.





I used MSD Street Fire universal wires specifically because they have a nice, compact 90* boot. They were about $40. You will need the boot protectors. I used DSE, sorry I don't have a part number but they were about $70. You're going to need them. Now spending $70 to protect $40 wires may seem crazy but if you don't you'll keep buying $40+ wire sets. So far no issues at all with burnt wires.



Last comments for now. the passenger side was pretty straight forward. There's no issues with the plug angle. Strangely I did not need to unbolt and lift the drivers side to get the header in place. I did on the passenger side. if you're real fussy about scratching the headers, unbolt and lift the driver's side. Since the MAC headers have individual tube flanges, test fit them on a head before you install. I had t tweak a couple on the driver's side. probably due to pounding the tubes with a hammer. I had absolutely no issues with starter clearance either. All in all the MACs fit pretty nice. They don't hang down low, they clear the trans cross member great and they will fit power steering cars with out a drop bracket for the ram.







 

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Cool setup, where do you think you are in terms of HP? 240-250hp? I see stock 97 Mountaineer is 210HP and 280ft-lb for torque. And your setup is a lot like my 89-5.0 with GT40 heads and I figured I was about that for HP. If you don't mind me asking how much you paid for the engine?
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Cool setup, where do you think you are in terms of HP? 240-250hp? I see stock 97 Mountaineer is 210HP and 280ft-lb for torque. And your setup is a lot like my 89-5.0 with GT40 heads and I figured I was about that for HP. If you don't mind me asking how much you paid for the engine?
That's about the range I was thinking, 240-250 hp. I must say it runs pretty well and does like to rev. I don't have a tach, the old engine was so tired. But this is something else. It's amazing that it even made 210 hp in factory trim with a very restrictive single exhaust system along with a mild cam. especially when you look at the last 5.0 Mustang with a hotter cam and dual exhaust only made 200 hp. It was refactored down from 225 due to a different SAE testing mode. You can see how bad the factory headers are.

<a href="https://postimg.org" target="_blank"><img src="https://s26.postimg.org/gui91c0qx/DSCN0338_zpsfjtp9fco.jpg" alt="DSCN0338_zpsfjtp9fco"/></a>

<a href="https://postimg.org" target="_blank"><img src="https://s26.postimg.org/ucp5dmcw9/DSCN0341_zpsdeh0i1nm.jpg" alt="DSCN0341_zpsdeh0i1nm"/></a>


I was originally going to put a set of new GT40P heads I bought a few years back on a rebuilt 302 tht had those nasty 69 CC heads. The more I thought about it, the more it made sense to sell the new heads and buy a GT40P since the P uses low tension rings and a roller cam. What I really liked about the roller cam is a lot of guys upgrade their cams and it is no issue at all to use a used cam on used roller tappets more then anything else. So I sold the new heads I had for $525 and bought the whole GT40P with the trans and EFI wiring and processor for $450. The motor is suppose to have under 40K miles on it. Inside the engine looked clean. That put me $75 in the black. I didn't factor in the cost of a balancer or flywheel for the 50 oz balance since I needed new ones anyway whether 28 or 50 oz.

The Edelbrock carb was used at $100, the Weiand Stealth was used at $80 and it is USA made version. The 5.0 cam was used at $60. The Crane Cobra roller rockers with Ford #s on them $115 used. The MAC headers I bought new, they're off the shelf. I think they were around $250. All in all I would do this swap again in a heart beat.
 

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In post 12 you show a timing cover with dowel pins on it and also a provision for a mechanical fuel pump. What's the timing cover is this?
I'm planning on doing a swap myself and I think the only part that I'm going to need extra is the timing chain cover. I like the newer one with the dowel pins. My 52 year old cover is pretty tired.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
In post 12 you show a timing cover with dowel pins on it and also a provision for a mechanical fuel pump. What's the timing cover is this?
I'm planning on doing a swap myself and I think the only part that I'm going to need extra is the timing chain cover. I like the newer one with the dowel pins. My 52 year old cover is pretty tired.
Also, would my current 289 flex plate bolt to the back of the explorer crank?
That timing cover with the dowels and fuel pump is a aftermarket replacement list in any catalog. It's kind of a universal. It has a boss on the front right to mount a crank posistion sensor too. I had cut that off, it was getting in the way of something Here's a link to Summit. While this one is made by Edelbrock, Allstar, Dorman and Ford make them. This one uses a bolt on timing pointer. I used a good used 289 cover that had a cast on timing pointer. Really it's nothing special or hard to get. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-4250/applications/make/ford?prefilter=1

Yes the 289 flex plate will bolt on but it has the wrong balance. You'll end up with a vibration. You want this style or type. This is a Speedway brand but there are a bunch of them. Speedway SFI-Approved SBF 289/302/351W Ford 157-Tooth 50oz. Flexplate | eBay

Since you're going to running a C4, you can use the stock exhaust manifolds with some minor grinding and same some money.
 

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That timing cover with the dowels and fuel pump is a aftermarket replacement list in any catalog. It's kind of a universal. It has a boss on the front right to mount a crank posistion sensor too. I had cut that off, it was getting in the way of something Here's a link to Summit. While this one is made by Edelbrock, Allstar, Dorman and Ford make them. This one uses a bolt on timing pointer. I used a good used 289 cover that had a cast on timing pointer. Really it's nothing special or hard to get. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-4250/applications/make/ford?prefilter=1

Yes the 289 flex plate will bolt on but it has the wrong balance. You'll end up with a vibration. You want this style or type. This is a Speedway brand but there are a bunch of them. Speedway SFI-Approved SBF 289/302/351W Ford 157-Tooth 50oz. Flexplate | eBay

Since you're going to running a C4, you can use the stock exhaust manifolds with some minor grinding and same some money.
I was going to use my flex plate and balancer so my weights will match up. I'm planning on using my current accessories so I don't want to run into alignment issues. I have read your other posts and was wondering if the balancer with adjustable weight and multiple bolt arrangements has the same install depth as the factory balancer.
 
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You can use a timing cover from an 80s 302, no problem. It will have the hole for the pump, or at least will be cast for it. They are easy to find.
 
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