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Discussion Starter #1
I have signed up to the forum to help folks out with cooling questions and answers .

Cooling can be a mistory for many that don’t study it on a daily basis as I do.

there can be many issues that can cause some cars to run hot .. im here to help

we can go over the in's and outs of the cooling systems and dispell much of the miss leading information that’s out there .

The cooling doctor is in so to speak ... I may not be in the forum daily as I may be busy in the shop welding
radiators for customers .. but will try to get back here regularly .

Thanks Don
 

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Hi Don,
Welcome to VMF
Thanks for signing on. I'm sure, as we progress into those "lazy, hazy, and crazy days of summer", you'll get your turn o chime in.
If I may, I have a question for you. All components being in working, what might be the temp differentials between the top and bottom of a typical rad? Perhaps this question is too broad when you consider the number of rows, and whether it' cross-flo vs. vertical and copper vs. aluminum.
Also, is there any truth to electrolysis developing when aluminum rads are plumbed with other cooling system components made of brass?
Happy Motoring!
 

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OK, I have a 67 Mustang with A/C and oil cooler. How do I keep the temp at 180 deg. ?Yes- I have 3 different systems to monitor the temp.
 

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OK, I have a 67 Mustang with A/C and oil cooler. How do I keep the temp at 180 deg. ?Yes- I have 3 different systems to monitor the temp.
What is your fan system setup? How far away from the rad are the blades? I'm assuming you're running a shroud. Why is 180 deg your goal? Living in Nevada, I know you can see some extreme temps. You do know, there is a certain degree of temp for the engine to self clean.
 

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The fan system is stock with a thermostatic clutch. The radiator is stock copper. No changes in the fan spacer and the clutch is working properly. No, the extreme temperatures here in LV are not an issue. I use 25% glycol--75% distilled water, no wetter. I check the temperatures with a quality mechanical (bulb)) unit in the therm neck. Yes, the mechanical unit checks against a lab thermometer. The original gauge is a bit objective in nature and I shoot the neck and heads (same spot each time) with an Actron. I am a ChE. so you can get VERY technical. I have several quality (?) thermostats and check them against the lab therm also. I use 180-185 as a base line as she seems to run quite well there. I am also quite anal on timing (curve, initial and total) and jetting including secondaries, main and accelerator curve. Been running a 390 CFM Holley,points and an MSD 6al. Yes, the plugs read as good as could be expected. Best regards. John--Las Vegas.
 

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Don, got any good pics of an original radiator restoration/re-core?
Ive always wanted to see that done.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hi Don,
Welcome to VMF
Thanks for signing on. I'm sure, as we progress into those "lazy, hazy, and crazy days of summer", you'll get your turn o chime in.
If I may, I have a question for you. All components being in working, what might be the temp differentials between the top and bottom of a typical rad? Perhaps this question is too broad when you consider the number of rows, and whether it' cross-flo vs. vertical and copper vs. aluminum.
Also, is there any truth to electrolysis developing when aluminum rads are plumbed with other cooling system components made of brass?
Happy Motoring!
With a good cooling system functioning properly you should see a 40 to 60 degree temp drop in the delta of the rad .. if a down flow top to bottom readings with a I/R gun .. as long as there is good coolant flow and good cfm dispersing the heat out of the system .
electrolysis problems with dissimilar metals can occur depending on how much dissimilar metals are in the system .. it is important to also have the rad grounded to the frame to help prevent electrolysis process in the system .. sacrificial anodes are sometimes used with Aluminum radiators to protect them .. but most cars have so much aluminum these days .. heads ..intakes .. the rad is just a small part of the aluminum in the system .
Don
 

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With a good cooling system functioning properly you should see a 40 to 60 degree temp drop in the delta of the rad .. if a down flow top to bottom readings with a I/R gun .. as long as there is good coolant flow and good cfm dispersing the heat out of the system .
electrolysis problems with dissimilar metals can occur depending on how much dissimilar metals are in the system .. it is important to also have the rad grounded to the frame to help prevent electrolysis process in the system .. sacrificial anodes are sometimes used with Aluminum radiators to protect them .. but most cars have so much aluminum these days .. heads ..intakes .. the rad is just a small part of the aluminum in the system .
Don
Hey Don,
Thanks for the input. Considering, as you mention all of the alum products used, there is very little brass components remaining, The only one I can think of is the heater core.
So, a 40-60 degree change is in the range of norm, if all is working as designed.
I have an Etype Jag with an OEM aluminum head and an upgraded Rom Morris Rad. I do use an anode sacrificial lamb in it. It is a known fact, with the steel head studs together with the aluminum head and other brass components and with the coolant circulating around them, the result of electrolysis. is quite the "gripper" when trying to remove the head.
Thanks again.
 

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The fan system is stock with a thermostatic clutch. The radiator is stock copper. No changes in the fan spacer and the clutch is working properly. No, the extreme temperatures here in LV are not an issue. I use 25% glycol--75% distilled water, no wetter. I check the temperatures with a quality mechanical (bulb)) unit in the therm neck. Yes, the mechanical unit checks against a lab thermometer. The original gauge is a bit objective in nature and I shoot the neck and heads (same spot each time) with an Actron. I am a ChE. so you can get VERY technical. I have several quality (?) thermostats and check them against the lab therm also. I use 180-185 as a base line as she seems to run quite well there. I am also quite anal on timing (curve, initial and total) and jetting including secondaries, main and accelerator curve. Been running a 390 CFM Holley,points and an MSD 6al. Yes, the plugs read as good as could be expected. Best regards. John--Las Vegas.
OK John, then you do know most all of those indices, do have an affect on the over-all running temp. This is good to know when diagnosing an cooling issue.
It is a well known fact, an optimum setup of the blades relationship to both the rad and it's placement within/out of the shroud, will affect it's overall performance in pulling max air through the rad. I have learned overtime and experience, the blade's efficiency is best when about 1" from the rad, but, be only 50% within the shroud.
Here in the the mid-Atlantic area, we see temps on the high side of mid 90's for perhaps a week, or so, during our hottest months. I run a 4 row rad with a 180 T/S. I run a 50/50 coolant solution with my fan within the specs mentioned. I can idle for a very long time without exceeding 200 degs. My road temps rarely exceed 200, during our hottest periods.
So, it is imperative, the other items are considered before one blames the rad, and pump etc.
Happy Motoring!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The fan system is stock with a thermostatic clutch. The radiator is stock copper. No changes in the fan spacer and the clutch is working properly. No, the extreme temperatures here in LV are not an issue. I use 25% glycol--75% distilled water, no wetter. I check the temperatures with a quality mechanical (bulb)) unit in the therm neck. Yes, the mechanical unit checks against a lab thermometer. The original gauge is a bit objective in nature and I shoot the neck and heads (same spot each time) with an Actron. I am a ChE. so you can get VERY technical. I have several quality (?) thermostats and check them against the lab therm also. I use 180-185 as a base line as she seems to run quite well there. I am also quite anal on timing (curve, initial and total) and jetting including secondaries, main and accelerator curve. Been running a 390 CFM Holley,points and an MSD 6al. Yes, the plugs read as good as could be expected. Best regards. John--Las Vegas.
Juan
First off I would like to point out a few basic things .. 3 major keys to cooling
radiator capacity
good flow
good cfm

when trying to keep things in check as far as running cool ,radiator capacity verses horse power rating on a motor is important
too weak of a rad for BTU's generated by the engine will give you a real head ache .. trying to solve the problem can be real basic , If you have enough radiator to keep the system cool then it’s the job of the T/stat to regulate temps .

coolant flow is king .. one of the reasons you see high flow t/stats and high efficiency water pumps on the market ... keep this in mind .. the less time the coolant stays in the block the less chance it has to gain heat .. if the radiator is efficient enough to dispel the heat generated .. then again it’s the t/stats job to regulate.

Cfm .. the higher the CFM threw the rad the better you will dump heat .. there's virtually no end to the heat that can be dissipated the higher the air flow is .. un like the curve on a horse power torque curve on a dyno chart .

with these basic things in mind.. little problems such as a bad t/stat restricting flow will be easy to sort out on high heat conditions too small of capacity or plugged rads .. poor cfm at idle .. or restricted coolant flow .. bad water pumps .. there are a Mirada
of little things to check before you pull your hair out .

I have seen folks go over things again and again chasing down a heat condition .. changing timing .. re jetting and so on
only to find they had a crap t/stat new out of the box .. or it went south after a month .

Don
 

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Juan
First off I would like to point out a few basic things .. 3 major keys to cooling
radiator capacity
good flow
good cfm

when trying to keep things in check as far as running cool ,radiator capacity verses horse power rating on a motor is important
too weak of a rad for BTU's generated by the engine will give you a real head ache .. trying to solve the problem can be real basic , If you have enough radiator to keep the system cool then it’s the job of the T/stat to regulate temps .

coolant flow is king .. one of the reasons you see high flow t/stats and high efficiency water pumps on the market ... keep this in mind .. the less time the coolant stays in the block the less chance it has to gain heat .. if the radiator is efficient enough to dispel the heat generated .. then again it’s the t/stats job to regulate.

Cfm .. the higher the CFM threw the rad the better you will dump heat .. there's virtually no end to the heat that can be dissipated the higher the air flow is .. un like the curve on a horse power torque curve on a dyno chart .

with these basic things in mind.. little problems such as a bad t/stat restricting flow will be easy to sort out on high heat conditions too small of capacity or plugged rads .. poor cfm at idle .. or restricted coolant flow .. bad water pumps .. there are a Mirada
of little things to check before you pull your hair out .

I have seen folks go over things again and again chasing down a heat condition .. changing timing .. re jetting and so on
only to find they had a crap t/stat new out of the box .. or it went south after a month .

Don
Yes, good post. I personally think that the thermostats are NOT regulating as they should. How I address that issue is a bit perplexing. John--Las Vegas.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Don, got any good pics of an original radiator restoration/re-core?
Ive always wanted to see that done.

Joe
I work closely with Rob at Classic Radiator Restorations
http://www.classicradrestore.com/

we offten have clients calling that want to use there Fomoco rads for a restoration ..rather then buy a china repop or even going to aluminum due to the fack there having the car judged .

he dosent have many pics on the web page but is one of the best rad restorers out there ... a true artist with brass and lead
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #14
A popular topic that comes up is overheating when not using a thermostat. I know the answer and theory, but was curious your take on it?
There is a common myth the seems to be stuck in peoples head .. that if the coolant goes threw the rad too fast it goes back to the engine hot .. this is true in the case of a radiator that is not efficiant enough to handle the heat generated by the engine .. sauch as a 2 row half inch tube set up or too small of a rad for a upgrade on cubic inch .. this will happen . as the rad did not dispell all the heat in the coolant pass

now the other end of the spectrem .. when you have a rad efficiant enough for the motor set up .. the less time the coolant has in the block the easyer the job of the rad to dump the heat .. this is why there are hi flow water pumps and high flow t/stats .

think of a pan of water on the stove . in simple terms remove from heat and boiling stops .. the less time at the heat source the lesser amount of heat gain ... with a efficiant system its the job of the t/stat to regulate flow .

some systems that are marginal they will reach a balance point of let say 210 .. thats the best that rad can do for the BTU's the engine is putting out .. a simple test of what the rad is capable of is to remove any valve in the system .. such as the t/stat .. with good flow and good cfm threw the rad .. you will find the capacity of the rad .. if temps top out at 210 .. then its time for a better rad .. bigger of more tubes in the core if brass copper or switch to aluminum 2 row of 1 inch tubes .. example A 3 row of brass copper with 1/2 inch tubes gives you a total of 1.5 inch of tube to fin contact .. this is where the heat dissadation takes place .. now onto Aluminum design 2 row of one inch equals 2.0 inch of fin to tube contact ... 1/2 inch mor fin to tube bond .. better cooling .

more education the old school brass copper stuff used a 1/2 inch spacing
between tubes where the fin is .. the new style aluminum cores use a 3/8 spacing .. this packs more tubes in for the length of the header .. those 2 things combines is what gives the Aluminum units a 30% increase in cooling efficiency over the old school brass copper units .

hope this helps
Don
www.Redlinecooling.com
 

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Don, I've asked other forums what the correct delta T should be on a properly sized radiator (and coresponding heat rise through the motor)and never got a straight answer (40-60*).
Thank you!

I've been chasing slow thermal creep for a long time. Doesn't matter if I'm on the freeway or in traffic. Hi-flow t-stat just slows the process and makes warm up slower. I'm currently using a restricor plate. I do have a shroud, high flow water pump and the flex fan is half in the shroud. 50/50 mix. I get about 30* drop top to bottom of the radiator (20", 3 row brass/copper).

I guess I'm on the right road by collecting pieces to swap into a 24" clamp-in radiator. Thoughts?
 

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Don,

Wow, what a great thread. Curious about something and you see like the person to ask:

I have a 65 Mustang (tiny radiator) with a late 70s, rebuilt (higher compression), 302. It has a 68 water pump on it to match the 65 style radiator I have. (Both outlet and inlet are on the passenger side).

I would like to get a new radiator, but am debating the long term cooling plan for my car.

Should I spend the extra money and time to get a water pump with a driver's side outlet, and the corresponding radiator with the outlet/inlets on different sides? Or do you think that a modern aluminum radiator and adding a shroud will be enough to leave the stock 65, passenger/passenger setup?

(I intend to go 2-row, 1in tube, aluminum -- and to have 300-325 hp at the crank eventually.)

Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Don,

Wow, what a great thread. Curious about something and you see like the person to ask:

I have a 65 Mustang (tiny radiator) with a late 70s, rebuilt (higher compression), 302. It has a 68 water pump on it to match the 65 style radiator I have. (Both outlet and inlet are on the passenger side).

I would like to get a new radiator, but am debating the long term cooling plan for my car.

Should I spend the extra money and time to get a water pump with a driver's side outlet, and the corresponding radiator with the outlet/inlets on different sides? Or do you think that a modern aluminum radiator and adding a shroud will be enough to leave the stock 65, passenger/passenger setup?

(I intend to go 2-row, 1in tube, aluminum -- and to have 300-325 hp at the crank eventually.)

Thank you!
I have never been a big fan of hose locations on the same side of the rad
the driverside of the core becomes stagnat at low rpm .. the hot coolant gets sucked down the first 8 rows of the core back to the water pump hot .
you will se on G.M models all down flows changed as of 66 to a oposing location for a better flow pattern .. same with the big block configs on mustang .
see this link as a example

RC-339-A MUSTANG 67,68,69,70 SMALL BLOCK ALUMINUM RADIATOR-AUTO

RC-339-A-FC MUSTANG 67,68,69,70 SMALL BLOCK ALUMINUM RADIATOR-AUTO W/SPAL FAN KIT

this would bolt to your core support .. even though you have a first gen car .
much better cooling for the 302

hope this helps
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Don, I've asked other forums what the correct delta T should be on a properly sized radiator (and coresponding heat rise through the motor)and never got a straight answer (40-60*).
Thank you!

I've been chasing slow thermal creep for a long time. Doesn't matter if I'm on the freeway or in traffic. Hi-flow t-stat just slows the process and makes warm up slower. I'm currently using a restricor plate. I do have a shroud, high flow water pump and the flex fan is half in the shroud. 50/50 mix. I get about 30* drop top to bottom of the radiator (20", 3 row brass/copper).

I guess I'm on the right road by collecting pieces to swap into a 24" clamp-in radiator. Thoughts?
Campindog
if your planning on staying with a copper brass rad .. then get a high effiency 4 row with 3/8 tube .. keep in mind there are dead spaces between each of the tubes , so air flow is not smooth threw the core ..and the small 3/8 tubes plug up easy and dont flow as well at the Amuminum units with a 2 row I inch tube config ..Aluminum will give you a bit better flow rate and cool a touch better then a c/b rad at half the weight .. but i understand people needs to stay stock looking under the hood .. either way go as big as you can on core size... sq inches are a big key .. one place where bigger is better .

Don
 
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