[66coupe289]

I believe AFR can mill the 165's down to 54cc with a flat cut. Mine were milled so that I could use them as direct replacements for factory heads without losing compression.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

thanks! at this point not planning on changing pistons but never know what happens once i get motor opened up lol.

I wasn't planning on pistons either, but when I mocked up the heads and clayed up the pistons, the valve were hitting the piston tops. This was with stock 289 c-code pistons that didn't have a valve relief. Your pistons very well may not have any issue with clearance. You need to check it though.

 

[ArizonaGT]

There are volumetric efficiency calculators out there if you want to look for them, but ultimately it’s just a number. I’ve never dynoed my car because I could care less what the numbers are, but I only get 2-3K miles out of a set of rear tires. Pretty much tells me what I already knew 🤪

 

[66Mustang2021]

Do you already have the heads? Trick Flow has heads with 53cc chambers.

yes bought them already thanks.

 

[66Mustang2021]

To answer my original post/question I just got off phone with AFR I wanted to check max lift for the heads was kind of worried about it with alot of lift with cam I got.
He says for AFR 165cc renegade heads it is .600 being I am at .544 with my cam and my set up should have no problem at all.
I went thru what I had set up wise, gave him my new cam size etc. and he told me should end up in mid to upper 300s far as hp at crank. Hopefully that is case, but would be happy with less. Thanks everyone for your responses. Going to start shortly with build.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

One more thing, that may be obvious to everyone but me. When I got my heads the rocker studs were already installed. About 2000 miles in, I had one of the studs come completely unscrewed, the rocker arm rotated and the pushrod started banging into the valve cover. I was less than a mile from home so I limped it in without needing a tow. The only thing ruined was the pushrod.

Anyway....long story short....AFR doesn't torque those studs. They just put them in the holes. It'll be up to you to torque them properly.

 

[66Mustang2021]

a. Send the head gaskets back. Pull the head(s), put a straight-edge across the top of a cylinder and use a feeler-gauge to estimate deck clearance. If you can grab a dial indicator with a magnetic base use that instead. Once you've determined your deck clearance, THEN order your head gaskets, shooting for a quench distance of .038-.042" (or as close as you can get).

b. Stock Ford rocker ratio is 1.6:1, not 1.5:1. There's no reason to go with 1.7:1, especially on the intake side... just get a camshaft with more exhaust duration instead. While we're on the subject of camshafts, IMHO the one you selected has too much lift. If I was going to pick a decent "street" cam in a "roller", from Comp, I'd probably choose a 35-351-8... but that's just me. For our 289 build we chose a M-6250-E303 for a bit more bottom end torque and fuel mileage... especially running 3.70's and a 1:1 high gear.

c. Stick with the AFR's... the difference between 53 and 58cc is going to be about .5 in static compression but static compression is only part of the overall picture.

One final, and oft-repeated (by me, anyhow) bit of advice from an "Old Fart" who was, believe it or not, young and inexperienced at one time long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away.....

Websites and catalogs are GREAT! However, they are, for all intents and purposes, advertising for stuff that vendors/manufacturers, etc., want you to BUY. Selecting the right COMBINATION of parts should be the goal, not the ones that, individually, promise to be the next best thing since sliced bread. One of those things that these sellers use is what I call the "Psychology of Horsepower" that goes hand-in-hand with "Bigger is Better" syndrome... So, think about this for a minute or two. Which engine would you want for a "street cruiser", below...

View attachment 879531
View attachment 879532

Just FYI
My info was not from catalog or web site, I spoke with companies directly.
Yes The motor spec sheet that was given me by Summit racing for the year my motor was built and it says "stamped steel 1.5 ratio on rocker arms for the motor, this changed in the newer year motors to 1.6 ratio.
The cam was recommended by Comp Cams (on phone with their tech) with that lift, and also same cam was recommended by summit racing , and spoke with AFR (on phone with their tech) and they think will be a good fit for what I am doing and will not have any problems with the AFR 165heads and my set up. So respectfully I disagree with you on that.
Thanks for the info.

 

[Woodchuck]

Just FYI
My info was not from catalog or web site, I spoke with companies directly.
Yes The motor spec sheet that was given me by Summit racing for the year my motor was built and it says "stamped steel 1.5 ratio on rocker arms for the motor, this changed in the newer year motors to 1.6 ratio.
The cam was recommended by Comp Cams (on phone with their tech) with that lift, and also same cam was recommended by summit racing , and spoke with AFR (on phone with their tech) and they think will be a good fit for what I am doing and will not have any problems with the AFR 165heads and my set up. So respectfully I disagree with you on that.
Thanks for the info.

Small block Fords NEVER used a 1.5:1 rocker arm.... unless somebody stole them from a small block CHEVY. No problem with your disagreement.... you're the one who'll have to drive it, not me.

 

[PaulyWally]

Any guess on what I will be putting down at rwhp with new set up?

One thing I learned, the numbers you get are not as important as the way that it drives. If your peak HP is at 7000 RPM, that doesn’t do much for you on the street. The HP and torque curve is generally what you want to look at. It tells you what your car will give you, and where/when it will give it to you.

Here is another thing I learned, most people (and I’m not saying this is you) don’t fully understand HP. Nowadays, HP is more of a marketing ploy that only tells a small part of the story. The Dodge Charger Hellcat is over 700 HP. Big deal. That 700 HP is not what makes it so much fun on the street because you don’t hit that HP until 6100. Who shifts at 6100 driving stop sign to stop sign?

 

[Grimbrand]

I'm sure you meant the piston to squish surface clearance (top of the piston to the flat part of the combustion chamber). Piston to valve clearance should be a little larger.

I did, in fact, mean piston-to-head, not piston-to-valve clearance. Thanks! =)

 

[Grimbrand]

One thing I learned, the numbers you get are not as important as the way that it drives. If your peak HP is at 7000 RPM, that doesn’t do much for you on the street. The HP and torque curve is generally what you want to look at. It tells you what your car will give you, and where/when it will give it to you.

Here is another thing I learned, most people (and I’m not saying this is you) don’t fully understand HP. Nowadays, HP is more of a marketing ploy that only tells a small part of the story. The Dodge Charger Hellcat is over 700 HP. Big deal. That 700 HP is not what makes it so much fun on the street because you don’t hit that HP until 6100. Who shifts at 6100 driving stop sign to stop sign?

It's common for a car with a broad, flat torque curve and modest peak power to absolutely stomp a high-horsepower 'peaky' car. When you get to power levels that will smoke the tires at any RPM, then traction - not horsepower - becomes the issue, especially when on the street.

Another thing that's frequently overlooked is power-to-weight. The lightest Hellcat weighs 4428 lbs. With 750 horsepower on tap, that's a very impressive 5.9 lbs per horsepower. But in a 3000 lb Mustang - not to mention some that are as light as 2600 lbs - you only need 508 horsepower to hit that same ratio. That's not a crazy number at all for a built 351, much less a stroker. It's not even exotic, these days. You could also get there easily with a blower on an 8.2 decked block like a 289 or 302 - though for reliability, you might want an aftermarket block.

But keep in mind, while everyone wants big numbers (it's human nature) you need to also consider things like brakes, chassis stiffness, and how well your suspension will handle that much power. Your old classic also won't have a computer that keeps you from doing a Pee Wee Herman and plowing into a sign when you lose control.

As many have said before: How fast can you afford to go?

 

[blkfrd]

a. Send the head gaskets back. Pull the head(s), put a straight-edge across the top of a cylinder and use a feeler-gauge to estimate deck clearance. If you can grab a dial indicator with a magnetic base use that instead. Once you've determined your deck clearance, THEN order your head gaskets, shooting for a quench distance of .038-.042" (or as close as you can get).

Yes definitely...that's another thing I checked before installing Jeff's very nice AFR 165s. I also checked piston to deck at all 4 corners to look for consistency and if the deck was squared to the crank centerline.

 

[66Mustang2021]

Small block Fords NEVER used a 1.5:1 rocker arm.... unless somebody stole them from a small block CHEVY. No problem

 

[Russstang]

I’m betting that’s a typo…

 

[Jeff351w]

If it's not they are using the wrong parts.

 

[Grimbrand]

Ford never made nor used used 1.5 rockers on a Windsor, ever. There aren't even aftermarket Ford-designed rockers in 1.5 that I know of. All are 1.6 or higher.

Some genius might've bought Chevy rockers, even though they have the wrong geometry and have a lower ratio than stock Ford. They "fit". But they'd be bad on a Ford head. So either typo, or a really poor part choice!

1.7 rockers tend to be noisy and hard on parts. If they're rollers, they are probably fine, but rollers are not as reliable as the old sled types, and they don't even make more power until you're above 5k RPMs anyway. If you are making a reliable street engine, good quality 1.6 sleds are the way to go, usually.

I'd also love to see what kind of faerie magic made that motor produce 250 horsepower. OE cast iron heads with stock cam, and 8.5 compression? Even with a good 4V intake and carb, and headers, that's essentially a stock 5.0 (NON HO) motor, and those usually make about 180-190 horsepower. The HO version with 9.0:1 compression and a hotter cam produces about 225. Throw in some '1.5' rockers, and they'd be down another 5-10 horses, not up 60...

This is not a dig at you, @66Mustang2021 ! Just annoyance at false advertising!

 

[66coupe289]

I would replace the rod bolts with some ARP bolts.

Unless Summit put non-factory rockers on the engine, the 1.5 is a typo. If they are 1.5 it will reduce the lift and .050 duration of the cam as those are calculated for a Ford based on a 1.6 rocker.

 

[66Mustang2021]

One thing I learned, the numbers you get are not as important as the way that it drives. If your peak HP is at 7000 RPM, that doesn’t do much for you on the street. The HP and torque curve is generally what you want to look at. It tells you what your car will give you, and where/when it will give it to you.

Here is another thing I learned, most people (and I’m not saying this is you) don’t fully understand HP. Nowadays, HP is more of a marketing ploy that only tells a small part of the story. The Dodge Charger Hellcat is over 700 HP. Big deal. That 700 HP is not what makes it so much fun on the street because you don’t hit that HP until 6100. Who shifts at 6100 driving stop sign to stop sign?

Agree

 

[blkfrd]

I would replace the rod bolts with some ARP bolts.

Unless Summit put non-factory rockers on the engine, the 1.5 is a typo. If they are 1.5 it will reduce the lift and .050 duration of the cam as those are calculated for a Ford based on a 1.6 rocker.

I don't think he wants to crack open his bottom end. He should be fine as long as he keeps it below 6000

 

[66coupe289]

I don't think he wants to crack open his bottom end. He should be fine as long as he keeps it below 6000

Agreed. I will run my stock bottom end up to 6k and shift. Knock wood, it has never let go.