[dodgestang]

The PO was a real genuis. The number of invisible problems have finally broken my back.

I found yet another beautifully stripped out bolt hole in DT....guess that explains why he had the alt hung from grounding tab. Add that to the several stripped intake holes that I tapped that still don't seem right, the fact I have to jack the motor and pull the headers to change the starter, the continuing question of the terrible idle & what cam it has anyway, the poorly installed c6 with reverse valve body & manual shifts, and the overall lack of trust I can have for anything the PO touched on this car...I fell my only recourse is to pull the motor, tear it down, send out the heads and blocks to a machine stop and rebuild from the bottom up.

Since of course this was unexpected and I spent my money on brake upgrades, suspension upgrades, and simple top end performance mods (intake, carb, dist, 6a, etc...) it might take a little longer than expected.

Anyone care to guesstimate costs on the following items:
1. Machining the block and heads
2. Valve Job
3. Roller Rocker and new lifters installed
4. 408 stoker conversion for a 351c /forums/images/icons/smile.gif (I need something to cheer me up since I have to this headache work)

 

[Mark156701]

maybe you should ask our good friend shelby and get a 351 windsor and stroke it to 408!! lol sounds like the po was really stupid and did some pretty stupid stuff i wouldnt keep the 351 cleveland either get a 351 windsor or work on a 289-302 maybe even a fe engine lol *g* good luck on what you choose to do i would just get another engine. oh and what are you going to do about that GIGANTIC hole in your hood???

 

[Nedcrane]

Getting 408 out of the cleveland block is a stretch,although there's probably someone out there who has done it.The cleveland has a 9.2 inch deck height,if I remember correctly,as opposed to the 9.5 deck of the windsor.This makes it difficult to get a reasonable rod length with a four inch stroke.However,I remember seeing some cleveland stroker kits on Speed-o-motive's website.As I recall,370 some cubic inches,and not too expensive.Irregardless,you you can make 450-475 horsepower with a stock stroke cleveland almost by accident.Over twenty years ago,I remember seeing a 351 cleveland at coleman brothers speed shop dyno over 500.As I recall,the compression was about 11 to 1,and it only had mild head work and a solid flat tappet cam,with a holley double pumper on a single plane.Strokers are all the rage these days,but it seems like overkill to me sometimes....As for an estimate on cost,I'd probably send you into cardiac arrest using the machine shop rates here in Maryland.Quotes I hear from anywhere else in the country always sound less expensive.

 

[Teebone]

This is exactly the reason when I purchase a car..I completely tear it down bolt for bolt and begin from the bottom..I change everything and anything that is questionable..but you got started in the right direction..brakes and suspension are the most important things to make perfect..

 

[Midlife]

Dodgestang: you should never listen to me. That's what I told him yesterday: that I wouldn't trust anything that the PO did, and that removing the engine and having it checked at a competent machine shop is a good step in the right direction for this poor beast. How can you trust someone that puts a Weiland high riser, dual 4 barrels on a 351C, drops it into a 65 mustang, and keeps the 2.80:1 rear end? Can someone explain that without me busting up laughing?

The really sad thing about DT is that Dodgestang only wanted to spend $10k or so on the car, and be able to drive it around for a good long while. He's waaay over that now, with even more money being sunk into it. However, the car is worth it. The body is solid, straight, and nearly rust free.

 

[dodgestang]

Mid, you are not the first person to recommend pulling the motor /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

Its one of those things that has been stewing almost since the day DT arrived and I drove her. I was really hoping to slip away for a year or two just by doing top end work......

My plans never seem to work out.

 

[CAponyboy]

1. Machining the block and heads (hot tank, bore and hone costs approx $200) Align honing and torque plating is extra and recommended

2. Valve Job (valve job with cleanup of heads and valves runs about $200) Bronze valve guides and hardened seats are extra and recommended.

3. Roller Rocker and new lifters installed (if you go with crane cams 1.6's aluminums you can get them for $180, new cam and lifters runs about $120) screw in studs and hardened guide plates are extra and also recommended.

4. 408 stoker conversion for a 351c (I need something to cheer me up since I have to this headache work)
I don't really know current pricing, but email Frank Eskra in Indiana
he sels stroker kits for better than average pricing. (forged kits)

www.gofastparts.com

 

[CAponyboy]

GO for a 351W and get a stroker kit.....

You can squeeze up to 450 streetable HP out of this setup...

then...you'll have to either patch the hole up on your hood or get a new fiberglass shelby replica with the low pro scoop built in.

I will go to my bud's house this weekend and take pics of his cowl induction setup and email them to you to see if you like his setup.

regards....

Clevelands are the darkhorse of the ford engines now....

It is easier and more economical to make ponies with a windsor.

regards
R

 

[TheShagg]

hey ill trade a c4 automatic VB for that c6 /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[sharkmouth]

windsors are ok.....but I'll vote cleveland

I know folks who have used 400M cranks and 300 (6 cylinder truck) rods...dont remember the piston..do a web search

Heres where I get lots of flames!!

351 c.i. Clevelands can make just as much power as a stroked windsor with UNPORTED aluminum heads, and cost less. I had a DAILY DRIVER 351C that pulled away from 5.0 EFI's like a stroker W would....nothing fancy, just a sensible cam (230 net duration), unported heads, and a 600 holley. Roasted both N50's with 3.50 gears...great fun!

A stock headed cleveland can be built for WAY less than a stroked, aluminum head W at the same power level.

 

[Guest]

""It is easier and more economical to make ponies with a windsor.""

With all due respect, I think what you said is crazy. I know this could be argued all day, but it seems that this is the tune that most on VMF are singing. But it kills me that all you windsor guys say this. More room with windsor?? Yes. WAY more aftermarket?? Oh yeah. More economical to MAKE POWER?? God no. I mean what's so "economical" about $1,000 heads?? After market head's are a neccesity to run with a cleveland. And the 1k price tag is for back of the pack lumy's. Ive seen complete turnkey 351 4v's that would just blow a windsor away for sale around here at around 1 thousand dollars or so. I am no expert and I don't play one on VMF but I have driven in a 70 with a 4v cleveland with nothing more than cam carb and intake uprgrade, and it makes my dads buddy's 347 stroker with twisted wedge heads and victor intake seem like a waste of >>>>>>5 THOUSAND<<<<<< dollars. So the economical part doesn't quite make cent's to me. I have found every part I have needed for my cleveland at around the same price as windsor stuff. The only thing that sucks is the lack of intake choices for the 2v heads. I think the difficulty of fitting one of these in your early stangs makes you all bitter, so you say windsor's are cheaper to make power with /forums/images/icons/smile.gif) If you pull out the stroker card your in big trouble because a cleveland can be stroked to. 4v Heads with a longer stroke = one torquey HIGH reving motor MoFo. SCARY.

This is from somebody who want's to go as fast as I can as cheap as I can with minimal work done to the engine internals. The cleveland was a better choice in my book. Argue with me please!! I just don't get it. Josh

 

[Guest]

Well sharkmouth, you beat me to it

 

[msolnik]

I dont really wanna start a C vs W war and im no engine expert (so take this with a grain of salt). But I think it all depends on the level of power you want and for what use. I have seen a 650HP/598TQ 408W that runs on pump gas (10:1 total engine price was about $3-4K) and have a pretty decent but streetable idle. I personally havent seen many clevelands get that high (on pump gas that is) even with the money. I do beleave that stock vs stock and lightly modded vs lightly modded Cs will usually beat a windsor. But when you want the major HP and still have it run on pump gas the older design/lack of aftermarket head for the cleveland is actually its weak point IMO. I remember seeing something in one of the recent mags about a 351W using 69 heads ported/oversized valves with compression in the 9s making around 425-450HP with a mild cam. People are always ragging on the Windsors... yes the heads did suck stock and arent as good as the cleveland heads but with light porting on the right heads they can flow very well and make great HP. Again Im no expert... I would love to see camachinists opinion on this.

 

[Art]

Rebuild?

Didn't you do a compression test that indicated the engine was in good shape?

Maybe just a camshaft change would make the engine more driveable...Remember, bolts go in lots harder than they come out..

 

[mstngjoe]

Here is something from the "For What It's Worth" dept.

The May 99 issue of MM did a 351W vs 351C buildup. The buildups were made as even as possible component wise. Due to some time constraints they only made one baseline pull on the dyno. They were supposed to do a followup article, but I don't know if they did.

The bottom line: The W made more power (slightly) for less money in these two builds.

Back in the day, the factory rated the 69 351W at 290 hp. The 351C was 300. And the 71 Boss 351 was 330 hp.

I think it's hard to talk apples and apples on these two engines. IMHO in terms of what's available today and the cost of the aftermarket parts, it's probably a wash money wise. As far as performance goes, all things being equal (more or less), I'd give the nod to the C for top end hp. But for bottom end torque, the W would win.

 

[dodgestang]

I need to get a bunch of holes in the block and the heads tapped because the PO stripped em out and left em and my hand tools are not cutting the bill. Plus I have to remove the headers to get the starter out, which can't be done without raising the motor....and will most likely end ugly. Add that to now complete and utter lack of confidence in anything the PO did I don't feel like I should trust the motor in any form. But maybe I'll be singing anoother tune by Sunday night.

 

[Cosmo]

Step, back, take a deep breath and.. don't panic ! Pull that engine, it's pretty easy. Get an engine stand if you don't already have one. Arm yourself with all the technical spec's for the clearances, etc. and have a look inside that bad boy. You may not have as much to do as you think. If the crank, rods, pistons and rings and associated fit are okay, you can just fix all the little problems and change whatever you want. Plus, it's actually fun.



If the engine doesn't have too much mileage, you could be better off than you think.

 

[msolnik]

Just to add a little bit to mustangjoes's post... the cleveland block is a higher revver thats for sure... due to the 2.75in mains... lots less drag. That why they make the aftermarket blocks now for the W... you can get them with the 2.75in mains which use the cleveland style crank but still have a 9.5in heck height of the windsor (this is the style of block I have. My engine builder really likes it the combo allows for nice strokers and great revving).