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Discussion Starter #1
BEFORE READING PLEASE READ NEW POSTS AT BOTTOM-IT SEEMS AS IF THE PROBLEM HAS NOT BEEN FIGURED OUT-THANKS FOR ALL OF THE ADVICE SO FAR.... :)



Well...after four 180* thermostats opening at 200*, I went with a 160*. I also removed the new AC condensor and installed a 14" electric pusher fan.

Now- some of you said that two fans were bad (electric fan pushing air through and flex fan pulling air through)- well looking at my mom's mercedes ml350, and my dad's 300sd, I knew it would work. Both of the Mercedes have a mechanical clutch fan on the engine side of the radiator. In front of the radiator they have DUAL electric pusher fans (auxilary fans)- now come on- these are Mercedes- how can 2 fans not work?

Results- :: :: ::
Turned on- let idle for 5 minutes- it hit 150*. Drove it 2 miles and it stayed right at 175- stopped after 2 miles and let it idle-stayed under 180*. Drove home- stayed under 180, let it idle in the garage- stayed at 175 or so-
Then I turned the electric fan OFF-guess what- it got to 190*
Turned the fan back on and it went to 178*.

Sooooo- Please remember that I said earlier the electric fan was only temporary- since I found that it works I will have to get an enclosed shroud.

I drove the car 2 miles while it was 70* outside.(tonight)
Last time I drove 2 miles when it was 60* outside, the car hit 210*.(2 months ago-with ac condensor, without electric fan, with 180 t-stat)

Now....the car stayed under 180 when it was 70 outside- this is Temecula so the temps will hit 100- tomorrow will be the real test.

The only other thing that worries me is the underhood temperature- even with the engine at 178*- there is just a lot of "heat" coming from the engine- is this normal? The valve covers, heads, etc. are very hot- bad or good?

I think I'm getting closer to solving the problem... :: We'll see.... :p
 

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How do we know it wasn't simply the "new" 160* thermostat? :D

Glad you're cooling things down. As to your concerns w/ underhood heat - hey, even 160* is hot as hell, at least to the human senses. That's just how it is. So I think you're probably normal under there.

EDIT:
Sorry, didn't read your post closely enough re turning the fan on/off. :p So the fan does the trick. Cool.
 

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If you need both fans then you just masked the probem and did not fix it. Try it without the electric fan and see what happens. Never change so many things at once when trying to identify a problem.

My Shelby runs 175-185 in Houston with only the stock engine driven fan and a copper/brass radiator...it will creep up to 205 or so in traffic at a complete stop but drops the second it gets moving so if you need a second fan for normal driving then you still have a problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I was using the electric fan only to mimic a fan shroud. I figured the electric fan would push more air through.

The electric fan is only temporary. Right now I am just trying different things to troubleshoot my cooling issue.

I did turn the electric fan off while the car was idling in the garage and the temp did go up- which does mean that the engine fan is not pulling enough air, which means I need a shroud, or one hell of a good engine fan.

Another reason the electric fan is temporary is because I do need to put the ac condensor in my car again- removing it gave me enough space to just try the electric fan.

Tomorrow I will post the results of driving the car in 100* weather.
 

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oh gee here we go again... Dude do you think that all mustangs overheat? They must have ALL overheated from the factory then. My 66 289 would idle in 97 degree heat in traffic all damn day and NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER ( loud enough??) go above 190 AND YOU ARE WRONG! 160 IS DAMN COLD FOR AN ENGINE! Best way to ruin a good motor is to run it cold and not allow proper combustion to take place. You will carbon up that motor in no time... Your oil will never get hot enough as well and burn off all that junk and water built up into it. You will sludge up the oil like nobody's business OH AND HERES AND ANOTHER ALL POINTS BULLETIN! Your engine will run at whatever temp it wants to run at no matter how low a thermostat you run in it. It will just take longer to get there. You are right Ron.. he is just masking the problem. Don't you think its strange that you have to do all this to get the thing to run cool? Your new 160 thermostat is what's the solution to running cool and that's only because its actually OPENING! never mind that its too damn cold. Want proof? what temp did your engine end up running at anyways? Sure as hell ain't 160. Been there done that a million times.
 

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i sense a tone of impatience?
 

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nolookingback. go read all his responses to this ongoing topic. sounds like an angry step father
 

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nolookingback. go read all his responses to this ongoing topic. sounds like an angry step father
I guess...but you can only tell people something so many times for so long before the patience start to wane so I understand to a point. It is almost as if the OP wants his radiator to be bad or wants to run 2 fans because he is not paying full attention to the advice. He still has a problem if it needs two fans, and that is a fact. He could even have the timing too retarded, heck I don't know because I'm not there.
 

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I am not angry nor am I a step father. It just seems to amaze me what some people will do to make their own misguided beliefs come true. He asked for advice which was given freely and the consensus was that his thermostat was bad. Its so obvious and I mean obvious!!! I want to see him suceed and it bothers me that he is going nuts over something that just isn't reality. These cars ran just fine from the factory and thats with factory stuff which wasn't always the best quality. My 66 with 98,000 miles on it and a way less than perfect cooling system ( the previous owner had actually routed the lower cooling hose UNDER the front sway bar so it was pinched!) just didnt have any problems. The only problem I ever had was in my own head from using a replacement sender unit for the gauge. Only when I put back the original and confirmed it using a meat thermometer , did it show me that it was never getting hot at all. All stock three row and it didn't matter whether I had a 160 OR a 180, thermostat in there.. It ran at 176* Actually, maybe the angry parent mode could actually apply here. I tell my 5 year old things that are very simple and to the point as well and he has to try it himself. But thats because he has no frame of reference and well, thats just what 5 year olds do. And I will eventually give up and let people be people and stumble their own way through the mess. Reminds me of a saying I heard from two foreigners the otehr day in my ER... The Americans always do the right thing.......

After they have done it every other way first! ::
 

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Discussion Starter #11
"DUDE" :p You think you are frustrated because I am not listening?

Dude ;) I am frustrated. And the reason I jumped to a conclusion was that I finally thought I had this very expensive and frustrating problem figured out...well...please keep reading. :(

First of all, I came back on to post some more results of my engine. I went back down to the garage and, after checking my oil (which smells and looks fine), I ran the engine- WITHOUT the electric fan-it was using just the 17" flex fan. Did it get hot? Yes. How hot? 190. I let it run more. It got hotter- up to about 205. Then what? I turned the electric fan on. What did it do? It dropped the temp down to 195 or so..

Now...who is frustrated? ME. Taking off the AC condensor and changing the thermostat has done absolutely nothing. I have MONTHS and thousands invested in a problem that may have been going on from the start. I thought it was the old engine because it was bored .60 over- NO ($3500 for a new engine).I thought the stock pump was not enough ($170 for Edelbrock pump)- NO. Tried 5 different mixtures of antifreeze, water, etc.-NO. I have now tried 5 thermostats- NO. How about an electric fan- NO (tried 2 different fans).

What about my time- let's see- I have had the car finished since February- I have only been able to drive it 200 miles in cold weather, other than that it was trailered.

Timing- It has been at 10, 12,14,16-you name it, it doesnt make a difference.
Lean- well it is a possibility although car doesnt act like it is lean- plus it is jetted richer.
Airflow- well there isnt an ac condensor anymore so that isnt blocking it.
Radiator- even though it is new you never now- nothing is perfect.

------------------------------------------
After running the car for a good 15 minutes, Everything seems to be the same temperature-heads, valve covers, top of radiator, etc... However- the bottom radiator hose (new) is pressurized, but it is cold, as is the bottom of the radiator- Now I understand that radiators work that way but this is cold like the engine wasnt even on. Is it possible that the radiator is clogged? I know for a fact the thermostat is open because I tested it on the stove.

So....
Unless I am testing these thermostats wrong, none of them seem to open when they are supposed to- which is why I went with the 160. Tomorrow I am going to have the radiator checked for clogs, check the air/fuel mixture, and try to find a good thermostat.

Please- before you get mad or get frustrated, think about how I feel. I am trying to do well in college, carry on a job, and worry about my car. What would you do if you had close to $30k in a car and you couldnt even drive it? :(
 

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Discussion Starter #12
By the way- I know 160 is too cold for an engine- Everything that I have been doing to my car is just to find the problem.

Why did you say that I think all Mustangs overheat? I had a '65 coupe with an all-stock cooling system that ran fine.

I didnt say that the engine stayed at 160- it got up to 190, plus I am just used to seeing the needle at 210...so for me this was a big change.

About the thermostats- well the one that was in my engine didnt open until 200- meaning that the engine reached 200 degrees before it started to cool down.

Why does everyone say I am masking the problem- I will say it again- I ONLY USED AN ELECTRIC FAN TO ACT LIKE A FAN SHROUD- YES THE ELECTRIC FAN REALLY HELPS....

The other thermostats open- all of them- they just opened late.

Finally- why did I do all of this to get it to run cool- well the ac condensor only comes out if the radiator is out ( i thought it was blocking airflow). The fan only goes in if the radiator is out. The thermostat only goes in if the coolant is drained. The radiator comes out when the coolant is drained. It is not like I have to have the fan on if it is installed- it does have a switch. (I'm just "killing two birds with one stone")

Can we please just try to stay calm? ::
 

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Discussion Starter #13
but you can only tell people something so many times for so long before the patience start to wane
I have been trying a lot of different things- I didnt want to run the engine withoug a thermostat..

It is almost as if the OP wants his radiator to be bad
I wouldnt be surprised...I'll let you know after I have it tested.

wants to run 2 fans because he is not paying full attention to the advice
LISTEN people- I am only using the second fan TEMPORARILY to see I have an airflow issue or a water flow issue...

He still has a problem if it needs two fans, and that is a fact
Yes there still is a problem- I know I need a shroud- but there is more to it than that- Now it is ANOTHER bad thermostat, or a clogged radiator. And after running the engine tonight with a thermostat that was open- it still didnt cool completely.


He could even have the timing too retarded
It is currently at 16 degrees advanced- it has also been at 12. I might be wrong but I dont think the timing could affect the cooling this much...


Please dont say I am not listening- Im trying fans, thermostats, etc only to find the problem. It is not like Im saying you guys are wrong- everyone has been very helpful and I apologize for dragging everyone into this ongoing problem.
 

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I might be wrong but I dont think the timing could affect the cooling this much...
Yes, I believe you are wrong on this one. It will make an engine extrememly hot if you are running out of time.
 

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Dude.....your post title says it all....


"you were wrong"


And you wonder why folks who have tried to help you are a bit frustrated? That statement was rather inflammatory.
 

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I've noticed that no one has mentioned this in any of your posts, but 210 is not "too hot" or overheating. While it may feel "too hot" or you percieve it to be "overheating", it isn't. I run 190 or 195 t-stats in all of my motors. My Suburban runs at 210 (which is the center of the gauge, the "normal" temp) all day long with no issues. Sitting in traffic it may creep up to a shade over 210, but then you can hear the clutch fan really start movng some air.

My Cougar runs dead center of the "normal" range on the gauge. There are no numbers on those gauges, or any of the early 70's Ford products I've owned, maybe Ford was onto something here, by removing the "X" value and replacing it with a "range". Bet it cut down on warranty costs tremendously.

The only other thing that worries me is the underhood temperature- even with the engine at 178*- there is just a lot of "heat" coming from the engine- is this normal? The valve covers, heads, etc. are very hot- bad or good?
A couple friends had late 80's Trans ams and Z-28's some years back. Those cars had some incredibly "hot" underhood temps due to the tight packaging of components. They both ran 210 onthe gauge and neither ever overheated. If you opened the hood on a 90+ day it would about take your breath away. Any part connected tot eh engine will absorb the heat of the engine, its natural. You have hot oil splashing on a valve cover attached to a hot cylinder head that is containing the heat of combustion, about 1300 degrees, plus the headers are throwing out some massive heat as well. Things tend to get a bit steamy in there.

I'm going to say the problem is more in your perception of what is "too hot" that what is really "overheating". You've made no mention of coolant pouring out of the overflow tube or the motor starting to make strange noises or run oddly. Since it doesn't seem to do this, just drive the car and get that new motor broken in. After it's loosened up, I'm sure the temps will come down to a more "normal" temp range as friction is reduced and parts wear in to one another.

I've built and broken in many motors and most all will "run hot" initially, until they have 500 or more miles of use. Get some miles on that motor........

FWIW, what did you use for a timing tab? The early style covers and tabs don't line up properly with the late model balancer and such. Did you check to make sure that TDC is actually TDC? Retarded timing WILL cause and engien to run TOO HOT, as well as deliver sluggish performance. Also, the t-stat is installed correctly with the "TO RAD" arrow pointing towards the outlet, right?
 

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but 210 is not "too hot" or overheating
I agree, so if my high school science class was correct, and my memory isn't totally gone (it is getting there) boiling point at seal level should be 212 degrees + (lbs of pressure * 3 1/4 degrees F) at sea level. With a 13 pound cap, you should ad 42 degees before it should boil. Boiling point would be 254 degrees.

FWIW, what did you use for a timing tab? The early style covers and tabs don't line up properly with the late model balancer and such. Did you check to make sure that TDC is actually TDC? Retarded timing WILL cause and engien to run TOO HOT, as well as deliver sluggish performance. Also, the t-stat is installed correctly with the "TO RAD" arrow pointing towards the outlet, right?
Absolutly correct. I never rely on the pointers or the balancer. Put a vacuum gauge on it. What kind of vacuum are you getting? If it is anything lower than 17, you're too low and are probably advanced.
 

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It sounds to me like you are chasing 2 problems,if the engine overheats while driving it means it is not circulating water. if it overheats while sitting it means it is not getting enough air. I chased an overheating problem in my 68 when I bought it as did the PO. She had the car in the shop every spring for cooling problems, for the 5 years before I bought the car. The shops changed every part of the cooling system at least twice.(I have the receipts) When I got the car it would overheat while driving (even a short distance) but would sit and idle all day without overheating. When I got the car I started checking and changing parts, and it turned out to be the radiator. it was clogged up, seems it was sucking in flakes of rust from the freeze plugs and clogging the radiator. I did change the fan from the 4 blade to a 17" 5 blade, but it is still driven by the engine and has no clutch. To solve my problem, I unclogged the radiator and used a stainless steel strainer. Cut the stainless wire off the strainer and inserted it into the top radiator opening folded it over so the hose would hold it there and reinstalled the hose. The car ran fine for about a week then started to run hot again, I pulled the top hose and cleaned out the screen reinstalled it and ran it some more. eventually it caught all the flakes of rust and the car has been fine for the last 2 years. Even though you have a new engine and radiator it could be plugged from the old engine, and this would circulate flakes of rust through the new engine as well.
 

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oh gee here we go again... Dude...NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER ( loud enough??) go above 190 AND YOU ARE WRONG! 160 IS DAMN COLD FOR AN ENGINE! ...OH AND HERES AND ANOTHER ALL POINTS BULLETIN!...
Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle. Fella, you were all over me because you thought I was rude to you - now you're responding to a post like this? :eek:
 

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I don't know what you are freaking out about, if you got the car to stop overheating by installing a 160* tsat and an electric pusher fan, it sounds like you solved your problem. i don't know what the big deal is with just leaving all that on the engine. drive the car and enjoy it. besides, even if you are running a 160* tstat, you said its running at 195, which sounds to me like a good temp but what do i know...

- Jason
 
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