[Guest]

I was reading a recent issue of Mustang Monthly, and an article on MCA judging said that there is a 25 point deduction if the paint color doesn't match the dataplate. So let me get this straight:

1. If I change the color but maintain the history of the car, I get busted for 25 points.

2. If I change the color and fake the dataplate, thereby losing the history of the car for future owners, I smell like a rose.

Convince me that this isn't a stupid, self-defeating rule for an organization intent on maintaining the "originality" of the cars. I think it makes more sense to deduct *no* points, as long as the color is appropriate for the year. That way, we will not encourage owners to cover up the car's history (PS - I have no intention of changing my car's color.)

Cecil Bozarth

1966 GT Coupe (Tahoe Turquoise with black pony interior)

1994 GT Convertible

 

[SHELBY]

I for one agree with that rule. The purpose of concours is to maintain the originality of the car, maybe I am in the minority, but I keep my two cars totally original.

68 GT500
68 1/2 CJ Coupe

MCA# 18519

 

[Guest]

... You are the exception, Shelby. From what I can tell, very few people say, "Aww, heck, I'll live with the [your least favorite color here] paint." Rather, they change the paint *and* toss the old data plate to hide the fact. And the MCA rules *encourage* them to do so! My point is, in this day and age where you can get a dataplate and bucktag with anything you want, this rule is counterproductive.


Cecil Bozarth

1966 GT Coupe (Tahoe Turquoise with black pony interior)

1994 GT Convertible

 

[daves67ss]

I agree with Shelby. If you don't like the original color of the car don't buy it. If you want to change the color enter it in show and shines.

http://home.mindspring.com/~thedaughertys/_uimages/M1.jpg
Now 293 ci (.030" bore) with Holley 450 and 295,000 miles
MCA #49294

 

[Laurie_S]

We went through this discussion just last week. I agree with Shelby that original means the color the car came with, not one that was available that year. In the prior discussion, Jeff Speegle noted that it is being considered by MCA that owners of cars with repro data plates will have to produce documentation of the original color. He noted that a number of red Shelbys did not enter a recent California SAAC show when that rule was made. I'd like to see it for MCA concours classes at the National level, also.

I love it when a plan comes together!

[color:red]1968 Coupe, "Murphy" - Original (car and owner)</font color=red>
[color:blue]1968 Fastback, "Trouble" - Restomod</font color=blue>
[color:white]1967-1968 MCA Certified Judge</font color=white>

 

[Jeff_Speegle]

1. Yes by choosing to have a door tag that does not martch the exterior color you loose 25 points'

2, You do not have to loose any history unless you choose not to tell the next owner and don't present them with the original door tag.

No one forces an owner to change the color ... it is a choice and like all those choices an owner makes when building a car they each present a result.

As a judge you can not (if the job is done well) prove that a cars color ahs been changed under the current conditions. But the judge car tell if the door tag does not match.

How in the world could you judge two cars and give them the same points where one car was the original color with matching original door tag and a car with mismatched door tag and color?

Jeff Speegle
MCA Shelby Gold Card

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6473
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1609818&a=12284202&p=44925357&Sequence=7&res=high.jpg

 

[Jeff_Speegle]

Likely my mistake of not making myself clear

1. The discussion about accepting only original door tag and or checking each cars original options were ideas that have been presented over the last 5 years. At this point neither have been addopted our gained much support. Though it would be fairly easy to support the door tag requirment in Calif cars in other parts of the country seen to require door replacement must more often


2. The reference about the Shelbys was at the SAAC National shows not any regionals. The checking was not really a rule (they really don't have judging rules as MCA as) but a practice

Jeff Speegle
MCA Shelby Gold Card

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6473
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1609818&a=12284202&p=44925357&Sequence=7&res=high.jpg

 

[Armond]

This is my take, not that anyone really cares! I am a currently expired MCA member, lost my number! If your going to show your car in an MCA show in a class like Concourse trailer queen, have it original, that is what those classes are for. If you hate your cars color and want to change, change it, but don't change the tag, that is just deception, No Tag? Give kevin a call. A 65/66? Have a new one made in the right color code though you might change the color of the car. My 17000 mile SCJ Mach is indian fire red! I hate it!!!!!!!!! But I won't change it. I have seen alot of cars out there that are fakes, these people are members of the MCA, One rule I would like to see is a copy of the Marti report with any car in a concourse type class. 67 thru 73 of course. Heck maybe they have and I don't know it! Is it fair? I think so, if it is available to show proof, show it. other wise just drive your car and enjoy it! I have one 69 painted code T red, why? Cuz I hate code S!!!!!!!!!! Peace........


Drag Pack it!

 

[Jeff_Speegle]

Think you'll find that this is not true especailly when you consider that access to resources to confirm the original color and options has become so easy and is being used so widely by people purchasing these cars. Especially the higher $$ ones.

I have changed car colors (non show cars) and have always informed the possible owner before the sale and included the original door tag. The number of people I know that have choose otherwise are a very small minority to those that make the same choice as I have.

Not sure who you car checking with but very few buyers I've dealt with will accept "any color since I can change it" are a rare occurance. And the the rule does not "encourage" but "allows" it.

And lastly we've been able to get reproduction door tags and buck tags for approx 20 yrs. IMHO getting them done correctly today is more difficult than it was in the late 80's

Please remember that if your an MCA member the club offeres something that very few if any other clubs offer, a chance to show up at the judges meeting (you do not need to be a judge) and voice your opinion. See you there

Jeff Speegle
MCA Shelby Gold Card

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6473
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1609818&a=12284202&p=44925357&Sequence=7&res=high.jpg<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Jeff_Speegle on 04/12/01 00:14 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Jeff_Speegle]

I agree that color changes (for show cars) is not my choice and as I reported the dicsussion about uding the database has been discussed but until alot of member support the use I don't believe you'll see it.

Require a copy of Kevin's report? Would have to have something better (and it has been offered).... if they will fake a door tag they'll fake a paper document

Jeff Speegle
MCA Shelby Gold Card

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6473
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1609818&a=12284202&p=44925357&Sequence=7&res=high.jpg<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Jeff_Speegle on 04/12/01 00:12 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Armond]

that is sadly true!

Drag Pack it!

 

[Columbo]

I for one, bought my car white.... Little did I know then it was suppost to be prairie bronze metallic according to the numbers on the dataplate.

I'm in a bare metal respray now, and I chose to maintain the new color rather then the original color. I do not however change the dataplate. I think it is only honest to show the car is not totally original as it left the factory, but it will be getting an original color. In my view, it still is almost original and I keep it stock.


Columbo
http://members.brabant.chello.nl/a.schroeders/Columbo66.jpg http://members.brabant.chello.nl/a.schroeders/Columbo66_2.jpg
First time rolling restoration, 66 289 nearing completion.

 

[KevinMarti]

This is always a tough one. And a lot of it gets directed at me since I am one of the people that reproduce door data plates and buck tags. Should people cheat? Of course not. Do I help them? As much as a company that reproduces floor pans allows someone with a "rust bucket" to hide the rust. Do we penalize honest people who truly want to change a car to their preferences to make sure dishonest people can't fake cars? Sorry, that's not the way America works. I've offered to the MCA a free check of every door data plate for any concourse car that they do a pre-show inspection on for the 67-73 cars. Of course the dilemma is we don't have any 65-66 data so the rules wouldn't be consistent. Would this be fair to the 67-73 crowd when the other years can't be checked? In ways, this is like a lot of other arguements in American society. Do we ban guns so bad people won't shoot innocent people (and will they figure out a way to cheat anyway)? Do I take away free speech so pornographers won't put that junk out for my four kids to find? Ah, America. I just love that we are free to discuss such complex issues. And to think this started with a Mustang door data plate! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Kevin Marti
Marti Auto Works
http://www.martiauto.com
(623)935-2558
http://martiauto.com/logos/logo_MAW.gif

 

[dmcq]

This is a tough one but not let's keep the issues distinct.
Separate the discussion of MCA judging and Personal Taste.
Anyone can change their car/dataplate/gender these days however by doing so you CHOOSE to not be a member or participant of the other group. If you want an original metallic bronze 73 convertible, CHOOSE to spend the time and money to find it. This includes research into the VIN if possible. If you wanted a red one, CHOOSE to buy a red one. However if you CHOOSE paint a bronze one red then you forego participation in the MCA concours class.
The best analogy I can offer is this -
"Competing in a concours class with an altered original is the same as having a sex change and wanting to use your old public washrooms. You'll feel funny doing it, you'll be discovered eventually and no one benefits."

Finally, what color should I paint my 73 convertible?
<wink>
D


Doug M.
1973 F Code Convertible, 302 4v, C4, and a lot more money to go!
(That isn't smoke, just Indiana on a warm winters day!)
http://24.183.185.135/Pictures/new_toy.jpg

 

[390GTAcv]

" My two cents worth " SO IT WASN`T BUILT THAT WAY!! So what ! You have more than likely done a much better job than Ford ever did ! You have to remember Ford built these cars as cheap and as fast as they could ! So you have spent much more time and effort to make your car better! Maybe by putting a deluxe intirior in or adding S/S wheels . SO WHAT !!!

 

[Mach1Pilot]

Oh Lordy, here we go again! CBoz, although I'm responding to your post, my comments are directed to all the color purists who have already responded.

Here are the core points of my point of view:

1.) I'm changing my Mach 1's color because I hate the original. I'm having Kevin make me a new plate to match the color change so that I don't get hit with an automatic 25-point penalty when I show in Concours Driven. I am not dishonest nor am I covering up the cars history. The original door plates will go in the folder along with the pictorial record of the restoration and the Marti Deluxe report (all of which clearly show the original color) for the new owner should I ever decide to sell the car.

2.) I do not accept the notion that I do not belong in Concours class because I "chose" to change the color. In fact, I "chose" to find as solid a car as I could with the drivetrain combination I wanted and that was numbers-matching. When I do show the car, it will probably be as original or more original than most of the competitors in the class, since it still has the original floor pans, frame rails, drivetrain, sheet metal (except for 1 rear quarter), and interior parts. It even still has the original headlights. So by all means, let's banish it from Concours because it is no longer the original color. If we are going to do that, I propose that we banish every car that has new sheet metal or any reproduction or NOS parts (NOS doesn't qualify for Concours because, although it may be year-correct like the paint, it's not what came on the car from the factory, hence the car is not "original").

3.) The purpose of judging (outside of Thoroughbred or Unrestored), IMHO, is to set a standard of appearance that honors how these cars looked when new. If I do that completely enough that a judge can't tell I changed the color, why should anyone care? I've used a correct color for the year and done a high-quality job of eliminating the old color and created a first-class example of how that car looked in the year of manufacture when they were painted that color! But the color purists are arguing that since the only thing that's not original on my car is the color, I'm to be banished to the show and shine classes! I've gone out of my way to honor the breed and I don't get to experience the reward of competing at the highest levels? I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but that's an incredibly elitist perspective. Almost as if Marie Antoinette had said, "Let them eat cake (and if they can't find any cake, let them starve! It's their choice!)" Hmmmm, actually that's pretty much what she meant! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Our Ponies
http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/Mach1painted.jpg http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/65vert.jpg

 

[dmcq]

Excellent points mach but where do the choices end? That's
my really, really big concern. I'm a judge for something completely non-automotive related but with the same opportunities as presented here. TB and Original aside because they're inherently narrowly defined, does any change, properly documented, hidden or unhidden, not obscure the nature of the class?
If it doesn't, then there's a need for another class (groan) and the rules, specs and appropriate paraphenalia that goes along with another class. I confess, I'm not an MCA class expert so it's only my opinion, I may be wrong.
Thanks,
D

Doug M.
1973 F Code Convertible, 302 4v, C4, and a lot more money to go!
(That isn't smoke, just Indiana on a warm winters day!)
http://24.183.185.135/Pictures/new_toy.jpg

 

[Mach1Pilot]

Actually, my position is pretty simple when boiled down. If the car looks completely original and the judge can't find any fault through normal, critical observation, there should be no issue or concern about originality. That simple, common-sense test will eliminate virtually everything that anyone could point to as diminishing the purpose of a concours class. In other words, if the choice creates an aspect to the car that was not available in the year of manufacture, it doesn't qualify for Concours. And that's pretty much how the current rules play out.

Our Ponies
http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/Mach1painted.jpg http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/65vert.jpg