Vintage Mustang Forums banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
359 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm putting a new timing chain on my '66 289, and I've managed to get the whole front of the engine disassembled. One concern I had along the way is the key pressed into the crank -- it doesn't look like it has enough "profile", although nothing has slipped so far. Here's a picture:

http://www.66trix.com/postpix/timingcover/keyslot.jpg

What do you think? Should I replace the key? If so, where do I get the material?

On a related topic, I've managed to accumulate an impressive pile of parts from today's adventure:

http://www.66trix.com/postpix/timingcover/parts.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,587 Posts
Woodruff keys are usually hard so the normal rule I use with keyways (since I make them *G*) can be bent a little. Typically, the key should engage the sprocket a distance in depth of half its width...e.g. a 1/4" wide key should engage the sprocket to a depth of 1/8"...

It's hard to tell from your picture but the key could be slightly short (in length) for the keyway. With woodruff keys, they are sized by both width and depth, which corellates to a certain length. It is possible to put a shorter (lengthwise) key in a longer slot, but, because of how the keys are sized, it would run deeper in the slot, giving less purchase in the sprocket.

I've seen a good number of cranks like yours with shallow keys and haven't seen any problems. IMO, it's borderline, at least at the angle I'm seeing it at. Maybe having a local machinist or mechanic take a peek would be a good idea..

Glad to meet another Apple owner in the bunch..*G* OOOPS!...didn't realize it was you! How's Mr. Devine doing? Our iMac is humming along nicely on its new analog board and Seagate Barracuda 4 drive (I put the old Quantum drive in my 8600 on a Sonnet ATA card and it's doing fine too)...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
359 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Always happy to get a reply from Pat!

It's hard to tell from your picture but the key could be slightly short (in length) for the keyway.

Looking from overhead, it looks like the key fills the slot, more or less -- the slot is a little roughed up, but not too terribly.

With woodruff keys, they are sized by both width and depth, which corellates to a certain length. It is possible to put a shorter (lengthwise) key in a longer slot, but, because of how the keys are sized, it would run deeper in the slot, giving less purchase in the sprocket

I'm trying to imagine what the rest of the key looks like -- is it rounded on the bottom, lengthwise? It's hard to tell from the angle of the photo, but the key has less protruding material on the front end than it does at the rear end, maybe by a mm or two. The only way I could imagine this happening, short of some serious abuse or a misshapen key, is for the key to be rounded on the bottom.

Our iMac is humming along nicely on its new analog board and Seagate Barracuda 4 drive (I put the old Quantum drive in my 8600 on a Sonnet ATA card and it's doing fine too)...

Glad to hear it. Having a computer die on you is certainly no fun, glad it's still holding up after the repair. Statistics are now on your side (not that that means anything /forums/images/icons/wink.gif) but knock on wood anyway!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,587 Posts
Yes, a woodruff key looks kinda like a half-moon, with a small flat area on the bottom, depending on the size and length of the key...yours is just in slightly crooked; nothing a tap from a brass mallet wouldn't fix *G*

If the key fills the slot lengthwise and looks good otherwise, tap it straight, measure the height and post it, along with the width (yes, it's been that long *G*)...

RE iMac.....knocking on wood here *G*...Educated myself, paid the piper for a proper repair, put in the new HD, which cut the heat load and noise a bunch, and installed a UPS (had only a surge protector before on that unit)...
Interesting, almost zero crashes (usually runs for a week or two before IE crashes it)...Since everything is networked, I like to leave all the units on 24/7. I even put the iMac video to sleep (against the advice of the iMac gurus on Apple's board) with no problems so far..

Sorry about the OT...just wanted to update you...

Let me know if I can be of further assistance!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
359 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Yes, a woodruff key looks kinda like a half-moon, with a small flat area on the bottom, depending on the size and length of the key...yours is just in slightly crooked; nothing a tap from a brass mallet wouldn't fix *G*

That I think I can handle!

If the key fills the slot lengthwise and looks good otherwise, tap it straight, measure the height and post it, along with the width (yes, it's been that long *G*)...

Will do first thing tomorrow AM.

Interesting, almost zero crashes (usually runs for a week or two before IE crashes it)

Hehe, it's always Exploder that crashes eventually.

I even put the iMac video to sleep (against the advice of the iMac gurus on Apple's board) with no problems so far..

Being in the display end of the business, I'm a big fan of using Display Sleep when the machine is on and idle. Analog circuitry changes with heat, use, and time, not usually for the better. The CRT electron guns in particular degrade with use, much more so than the phosphors. Turning them off (as opposed to using a screen saver) is definitely a good idea. I spent my first couple of years in this department working on formulas and algorithms designed to compensate for electron gun degradation (there's an obscure field for you!) and I can attest to the severity of the wear. Sadly, your iMac doesn't contain the circuitry for compensating for the wear, so I support your decision to sleep the video whenever possible.

Sorry about the OT...just wanted to update you...

No sorry necessary -- glad to hear the update and that things are going reasonably well.

Thanks for the info, I'll reply tomorrow with measurements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,911 Posts
Dont take chances on a 50 cent piece that can wreck the entire engine!!

macintosh.........ewwwwwww!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
680 Posts
Any of your local auto parts houses should have a supply of the keys. Take that one out, and take it in and compare it to the new ones. You should be able to find a replacement.
To me, that one looks like it doesn't stick out enough, and might let the balancer spin....Just my opinion, and you know about opinions....They are just like a$$ holes, everyone has one, and they all stink.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
359 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
measure the height and post it, along with the width

Okay, so I went out and measured this morning. I couldn't tap it in straight, as the high side is under the protrusion of the camshaft, and there's no way to get any swing on the hammer. I'll have to dig up a punch or something, although this may be a moot point...

The actual measurements are:
Overall length: 1 3/8"
Front height (above crank snout): 1/32"
Rear height (above crank snout): a little more than 1/16"

I'd guess that's too small. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

So, what's the best way to get the old one out? I see that the crank snout has already been boogered up somewhat by a PO, and I'd like to avoid doing any more damage to it. Vice grips? I only have 1/16" to work with, at best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
359 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
So, what's the best way to get the old one out?

Strike that last query, I managed to slide it out using a nail set and a hammer. Dropped it right into my still-filled oilpan, too. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif Good thing I had one of those magnetic fisher-outer-thingamabobs.

I'll head off to an auto parts store to see if I can find a replacement. I don't really have AutoZone or NAPA nearby, I'm stuck with Kragen and Pep Boys, but I'll see what I can get.

Thanks to all who offered advice, especially Pat. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,587 Posts
If the key is 3/16" wide, the protrusion is a little on the minimal side....if 1/8", it would be OK (I can't remember which it is)

Usually a narrow brass punch struck on the front edge should rotate the back up a bit more, allowing one to wedge the back out and up until one can grip the key with pliers....
Sometimes a little penetrating oil sprayed on the key area prior to removal helps...

I posted recently on this subject...check my archived posts...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
359 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
If the key is 3/16" wide, the protrusion is a little on the minimal side....if 1/8", it would be OK (I can't remember which it is)

It's 3/16" wide, sorry I didn't post that part. I was also thinking it was a bit minimal, applying your half rule.

So far, I've struck out with trying to find a replacement at my local Kragen and Pep Boys. There's a NAPA somewhere in Oakland, I'll have to find it.

Usually a narrow brass punch struck on the front edge should rotate the back up a bit more, allowing one to wedge the back out and up until one can grip the key with pliers....

Yeah, I got it, but I didn't have a brass punch /forums/images/icons/frown.gif I used a nail set, and it marred the end of the key a little bit. As long as I find a replacement, though, it'll be okay /forums/images/icons/wink.gif. Seriously, it didn't mar it too much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,587 Posts
Oakland is very industrial, based on my visits there buying tooling and machinery for my shop. An industrial fastener or machine tool supplier (like where you buy tool bits and drills, etc) will likely have a selection of woodruff keys. Just take yours in as a sample. Remember, if you have a bench sander or grinder, you can modify a longer key if there isn't one to correctly fit your application. Just keep the key from turning blue while removing material (dunk in water)...


Have fun!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
359 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
(like where you buy tool bits and drills, etc)

Call me naive, call me dumb, call me late for dinner, but I buy bits and drills and stuff like that at Orchard Supply, or maybe on occasion Home Depot. I'd love to frequent more "local" shops, though -- what category do these kinds of places hide under in the yellow pages?

Remember, if you have a bench sander or grinder, you can modify a longer key if there isn't one to correctly fit your application. Just keep the key from turning blue while removing material (dunk in water)...

I had been thinking I might have to do that, although i didn't know the part about preventing it from turning blue. I take it that's when it gets weak?

Thanks much for the tips...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,587 Posts
hehehe....ask your friendly neighborhood box store guy or OSH clerk for a couple of boxes of 10 CNMG-421 inserts in CerMet....that's what I mean by tooling and bits....FWIW, the above order would fit in the palm of your hand (with a lot of room left over) and cost over 200.00.

Look under industrial supply or machine shop supply in the yellow pages. Or, you can do like I do and buy online from places like MSC Direct...they have almost anything you'd ever want or need and deliver it out of Reno to our areas in one day. I ordered about 1K of tooling last Thursday afternoon and it was here Friday afternoon...

If the key is hardened (and woodruff keys often are), too much heat will draw the temper and anneal the key, weakening it.....folks like myself who work with metal all the time can discern the subtle color changes metal goes through when heated....we also use temp-triggered markers called TempL-sticks which melt at a certain temperature. I use them when doing home grown heat-treating (like the strut spindles on the race car).

Funny, even in today's computer and technology-driven world, there's still a place for the village blacksmith...*G*
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
359 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
hehehe....ask your friendly neighborhood box store guy or OSH clerk for a couple of boxes of 10 CNMG-421 inserts in CerMet....that's what I mean by tooling and bits

While I have no idea what the above order consists of, I think you've nonetheless just described my general frustration with the stores that I seem to have available to me. I know there's better (and more specific) stores out there, but having spent the majority of my adult life writing code (i.e. I'm relatively new at this car-nut stuff), I have so far been unable to sniff them out.

Look under industrial supply or machine shop supply in the yellow pages. Or, you can do like I do and buy online

That's exactly the kind of information I needed. Thank you.

Funny, even in today's computer and technology-driven world, there's still a place for the village blacksmith.

Indeed.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top