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Discussion Starter #1
how does different colors than the orginal effect your judging scores or can you go into a different catergory of be judged? how does having extras effect your judging too? thanks a bunch!
 

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If your car's colors and other options listed on the data plate no longer match, you will lose points in the concours trailered or concours driven categories. In the street driven, occasional driven, daily driver, and modified class, the changes won't matter. At MCA shows you do need at least three modifications to be in the modified class. In these classes you are (or should be) only judged for cleanliness, condition, and workmanship. Changes in color and other parts won't affect the points in any class other than concours. Just watch out for those Alabama judges. *G*

I love it when a plan comes together!

[color:red]1968 Coupe, "Murphy" - Original (car and owner)</font color=red>
[color:blue]1968 Fastback, "Trouble" - Restomod</font color=blue>
[color:white]1967-1968 MCA Certified Judge</font color=white>
 
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Discussion Starter #4
there's a lot of concours cars with the colors changed. all you have to do is get a new VIN plate stamped to reflect the color change.

just keep in mind that you are doing this for 'show' and that if you ever sell the car you should make the prospective buyer aware that there was a color change.

Charles Turner
MCA Gold Card Judge(64.5-65, 66)
'65 Fastback
'00 GT Conv, triple black


Check out my 65 [color:blue]fastback!</font color=blue>
 

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Oh, definitely not! Just like I hope people don't think bad of Tucson after seeing those morons rioting here after the National Championship game. Those weren't UA fans!

I love it when a plan comes together!

[color:red]1968 Coupe, "Murphy" - Original (car and owner)</font color=red>
[color:blue]1968 Fastback, "Trouble" - Restomod</font color=blue>
[color:white]1967-1968 MCA Certified Judge</font color=white>
 

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I know this is done, but IMHO I consider it to be unethical if you're showing the car (and definitely so if you're trying to sell it as you say). If you're not showing the car, then why bother? Concours cars to me are original cars, and if the color has been changed, the data plate should not be. I'm having a new plate made for my fastback as the original is in terrible condition due to the fire; however, it will reflect all the original info and not the mods.

I love it when a plan comes together!

[color:red]1968 Coupe, "Murphy" - Original (car and owner)</font color=red>
[color:blue]1968 Fastback, "Trouble" - Restomod</font color=blue>
[color:white]1967-1968 MCA Certified Judge</font color=white>
 

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Laurie, for what its worth--and I'm definitely not qualified to second guess MCA judges--I met you briefly in Pensacola and saw Murphy up close. Just by comparison to other cars in your class, and all the concours cars I've seen at shows over the past few years,I think you were robbed. That said, I'm a (long ago) Connecticut transplant to AL and now live in the Birmingham area. I spent a fair amount of time in Huntsville, AL, which I understand is where your troublesome judge is from. From my experience, few people in Huntsville are "from" there, but are transplants from all over the country, brought there by the space/defense/tech operations there. This essay is a long-winded way of saying that the officious charater you encountered at Pensacola may well be about as much of an "Alabama" judge as Murphy is a Bronze award winner (not in the least). The guy just happens to live here and may have let his authority go to his head.

EdK (Ed Kennedy on old forum)
'66 Coupe, '94 GT Convertible, 2000 Explorer XLT
 
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Discussion Starter #8
i dont think it's unethical as long as it is a color available for the year of manufacture. But, they better do a damn good job at the color change where I can't find ANY original paint if it's entered in concours.





Charles Turner
MCA Gold Card Judge(64.5-65, 66)
'65 Fastback
'00 GT Conv, triple black


Check out my 65 [color:blue]fastback!</font color=blue>
 

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Thanks for the kind words, Ed. I don't remember the accents on both judges, but one definitely was southern. Not blaming the state or any club, just the individuals. I figure calling them "Alabama Judges" is the nicest thing I could say about them. I don't want Bob to censor me out of here. *LOL*

I love it when a plan comes together!

[color:red]1968 Coupe, "Murphy" - Original (car and owner)</font color=red>
[color:blue]1968 Fastback, "Trouble" - Restomod</font color=blue>
[color:white]1967-1968 MCA Certified Judge</font color=white>
 

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Maybe dishonest is a better word, but I don't believe a car with a changed color should have a changed data plate, especially if it's entered in concours competition with honest cars (i.e., original colors and plates). Once you change a plate to match the new color, it isn't that much more to change it for an engine, tranny, etc. It has to stop somewhere, so really it shouldn't be done at all. But I do agree, you can almost always find the original paint color somewhere on the car, and if that happens when I'm judging, I'll definitely take maximum points off for it.

I love it when a plan comes together!

[color:red]1968 Coupe, "Murphy" - Original (car and owner)</font color=red>
[color:blue]1968 Fastback, "Trouble" - Restomod</font color=blue>
[color:white]1967-1968 MCA Certified Judge</font color=white>
 

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Laurie, I respect your right to disagree but I do object to pejorative adjectives such as unethical or dishonest.

I have two Mustangs undergoing color changes and those changes will be reflected on the warranty plate. In both cases, the restorer has stripped the car down to a rolling body shell and repainted. When or if I sell either car, the buyers will be told of the color change because I am, in point of fact, neither unethical nor dishonest.

The '69 Mach 1 will be accompanied by a Marti Auto Works deluxe report that shows the original color. Both it and the '65 convertible will be accompanied by full receipts and pictures documenting both restorations from start to finish.

There are precious few of us whose lives have followed a course that would support owning a vintage Mustang since new. Now that they are becoming scarce, are we to live with colors that we wouldn't choose for ourselves because it's all we can find? Or should we be relegated to the lower classes at the shows? If we should be eligible to compete at concours level, why do you believe that because your car still carries its original color that you are entitled to a 25-point advantage over a concourse-quality restoration that includes a color change? Change the judging rules to let us compete head to head on the basis of quality alone and I will gladly leave the old data on the warranty plate. But don't tell me that I have to hand you a 25-point advantage because you were able to order your car new and I had to take what I could find. That twist of fate doesn't make you inherently more ethical or honest than I or more deserving of a show trophy. If originality is that important, that's what Thoroughbred class is for.


Our Ponies
http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/Mach1painted.jpg http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/65vert.jpg
 

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Sorry, but I stand by what I said earlier regarding changing the plate and concours classes. I didn't order the color of my car, my father did, and I hated it for years. If you can believe it, I actually wanted Lime Gold. *G* I came very close to changing the color to blue many times but finally decided that I would never find my car in the parking lot if I did change it.

I do agree that 25 points is way too big a deduction for each of the four items on the warranty plate, I think it should be more like 5 points. At the same time, you are making a choice to change the colors so you are aware of the concours problem.

I can't enter Thoroughbred classes because my car has been repainted and the deductions for that and the various repro items would kill me in that class. I accept that and compete in the class that according to the rules best fits my car. Granted, at MCA National and Grand National shows concours cars do not compete with each other so the data plate issue doesn't come into effect. It does, however, at regional shows that don't use the point standard.
Therefore, why should I give up the advantage of the correct data plate-car color? If you want to compete on condition and quality that's what the street classes are for. We all make choices based on what we do and how the classes are set up. Other than reducing the deduction points I don't believe that the concours rules should be changed, as they are, after all, focusing on originality.

I love it when a plan comes together!

[color:red]1968 Coupe, "Murphy" - Original (car and owner)</font color=red>
[color:blue]1968 Fastback, "Trouble" - Restomod</font color=blue>
[color:white]1967-1968 MCA Certified Judge</font color=white>
 

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Sorry Laurie, but I still disagree. Concours is about original appearance. Thoroughbred is about true originality.

The introduction to Concours class states that Concours is defined as factory original as ordered from Ford Motor Company. As long as my new color is one that could have been ordered from the factory when the car was new, it meets that definition. Certainly, if you want to take that definition to the extreme, you could argue that nothing other than enamel should be considered original.

Using that standard, a basecoat/clearcoat paint job (original color or otherwise) should be a point deduction, since that could not be ordered from the factory and consequently is anything but original. Is that what you are arguing?

Note that only the Thoroughbred and Unrestored rules contain any reference to true originality.

If I do a good enough job restoring my car so that you can't tell that I changed the color, then I have lived up to the spirit of the concours class.

If you inspect my car more carefully than another because you suspect a color change and then, as stated in one of your previous posts, take the maximum allowable points regardless of how hard you had to work to find that original remnant of color, I submit that you are not judging fairly and are substituting your personal value system for that embodied within the rules.

Our Ponies
http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/Mach1painted.jpg http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/65vert.jpg
 

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Well, it's obvious we'll never agree on this point, but please don't put words in my mouth. I don't look any harder at one car than another to see if the color has been changed. It's either obvious in the areas that Charles Turner mentioned or it can't be seen. Judges are not supposed to touch, move, lift, or do anything else to the car beyond moving the doors, trunk, and hood to check for fit. A good repaint job will cover the original paint and it will not be discovered. My personal beliefs regarding repaints and changed warranty plates are not part of my judging system.

As for the judging rules, I interpret the statement in the concours section that "Concours is defined as factory original as ordered from Ford Motor Company" to mean that the car's original color is what is correct, not that any color available that year is correct. The definition for Thoroughbred is actually looser "...restored and/or unrestored cars that have been restored/original with the correct era parts,...etc."

As for paint type, if a car is painted BC/CC it better have some orange peel in it or it can lose up to 3 points. That is in accordance with MCA judging rules. Personally, I don't see going to the effort to put on a nice BC/CC paint job and then putting orange peel in it, but if someone does, then no deductions should be made by MCA rules.

Finally, regarding my maximum deduction of points and putting my personal value system into the judging, if I determine that a car is not the original color and the warranty plate has been changed to cover that fact, then I can take up to 5 points off in the line item of "Point deductions for other items not proper or original." That is my maximum deduction for a poor paint change job. Any other possible deduction (i.e., warranty plate) would be brought to the attention of the Head Judge at the show for a ruling.

I have been judging concours, street, and modified cars for 18 years now and have always tried to be fair and consistent. I certainly am not out to target any particular car or owner, but I am a thorough judge and take the responsibility seriously as it should be.

I love it when a plan comes together!

[color:red]1968 Coupe, "Murphy" - Original (car and owner)</font color=red>
[color:blue]1968 Fastback, "Trouble" - Restomod</font color=blue>
[color:white]1967-1968 MCA Certified Judge</font color=white>
 

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" Concours is about original appearance.Thoroughbred is about true originality".

Would disagree a bit. I would say both classes are both based on originality and appearance (Trailer Concours)

"The introduction to Concours class states that Concours is defined as factory original as ordered from Ford Motor Company. As long as my new color is one that could have been ordered from the factory when the car was new, it meets that definition. "

Don't believe that was the intent or thought when we wrote those words. I would suggest the this was place to allow us to deduct for colors that while being called by the factory name were really another tone or color. Not an uncommon problem back when these words were originally written

"Certainly, if you want to take that definition to the extreme, you could argue that nothing other than
enamel should be considered original."

If in my opinion I can tell if the car is no enamel or has a clear coat then I can deduct for it

"Using that standard, a basecoat/clearcoat paint job (original color or otherwise) should be a point deduction, since that could not be ordered from the factory and consequently is anything but original. Is that what you are arguing?"

I have and will if I can determine that fact and an owner IMHO should not be upset with the loss of the points.

" Note that only the Thoroughbred and Unrestored rules contain any reference to true originality"

Not sure if we included the trem "true originality" We wrote that Thoroughbred, Concours and Unrestored classes are judged on a standard of perfection. But don't see the terms you referenced

"If I do a good enough job restoring my car so that you can't tell that I changed the color, then I have lived up to the spirit of the concours class. "

Don't have any problem if you do a change and I can't find any traces of the change but got to let you know that ther was discussion about not allowing reproduction door tag and even having Kevins data base available to confirm cars. NEITHER have been accepted as possiblites at this point. But a similar even took place at SAAC shows once almost all of the paper work was made public. Alot of RED Shelbys stayed at home or in the parking lot from there on.

As far as "needing " (my word not yours) to change the color because you didn't find the exact one you wanted that is your choice and to change colors is also your choice. But please I hope that everyone understands the rulles should not be bent, modified or changed to favor a particular car or owner. Its been done too many times in the past.



" take the maximum allowable points regardless of how hard you had to work to find that original remnant of color, I submit that you are not judging fairly a..."

In general terms I have to disagree. As long as she makes the same effort on each car in the class from the very first one she is being fair. A color change is a color change. BUT the judge must always IMHO give the car and owner the benefit of doupt. In saying this I offer the following examples I have been faced with.

1. A fake GT as it appears - car has exterior details and disc brakes but on inspection we find no factory dual exhaust nor the related supports. DO we deduct for the lack of supports or the presence of the GT equippment

2. We find a black car with matching door tag. On inspection we find traces of red paint under the balck paint on the front fender. Do we deduct for a color change or for red paint on a black fender (fender could have come from a donor car)

And lastly I would ask/suggest that everyone with an opinion and an interest to get involved in judging. It can be as challenging and informative as owning and building.

Jeff Speegle
MCA Shelby Gold Card

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6473
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation, and help.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1609818&a=12284202&p=44925357.jpg
 

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Jeff, I'm responding to your post but addressing the points raised both in yours and Laurie's. You may recall that my participation in this debate began over the use of terms such as unethical and dishonest. There was also a comment about "honest" cars that are still original. I can agree to disagree over what the rules mean, but I cannot (and will not) accept such demeaning terms applied to me or to my car because I changed the color and reflected those changes on the warranty plate.

In your comments about color, you note that the rules intent was to allow you to deduct points for colors that differ in appearance from the factory color while being called by the same name. I agree that generic sky blue is not Acapulco Blue and the point deduction is legitimate. But true Acapulco Blue on a car labelled as Acapulco Blue meets the intent of the rule as you've described it, regardless of whether the car was once Lime Gold.

Laurie interprets the rule more strictly even than you, if I'm interpreting your respective comments correctly. So we agree to disagree.

This debate reminds me of an earlier thread in which there was strong disagreement with the notion of judging systems and I took the position then that we need the museum pieces to preserve the history of the marque. I still believe that, but an overly restrictive interpretation of the rules (or a requirement of proven originality such as you indicated was under consideration at one point) would eliminate a significant percentage of the cars and owners now competing in the Concours classes.

I think it is elitist to say that anyone who didn't have the opportunity to find a car in a color that they like must tolerate the color that they find in order to compete at the Concours level. It means that someone who has poured significant labor or investment (emotional or economic) into their car to make it as perfect an example of the breed as they can make it, must nonetheless consider their car less than "honest" if that included a color change to suit the owners preference.

Ah, but I can hear the argument already... The car is still honest as long as they don't change the warranty plate and so accept the 25-point deduction as the price for their color preference. If you can't tell, through normal judging observation as described in Lauries post, that the color has been changed, why should that owner be expected to start with a 25-point handicap if the rules are about quality and not strict originality.

BTW, the fact that there was consideration given to requiring provable originality and that that option was discarded further reinforces my contention that the quality of the restoration, not the strict originality of it, was the primary objective of the rules and of the MCA.

Let me also note that the original popularity of the Mustang was as a make-it-your-own vehicle. As I interpret you and Laurie, it now becomes, make it only what the original owner in 196X wanted it to be. Kinda takes some of the spirit out of the hobby, IMHO. It also means that meticulously restored color-change cars, in order to be considered as "honest", must compete in either modified or street-driven classes. Where does that leave the restomods or 10-footers? They now have to compete with Concours-quality cars? Where do they go to be competitive?

I believe that the end result of such strict interpretation of the rules will result in further erosion of support for judged shows and the organizations that run them. It makes the top levels of show so exclusive that there will no longer be anyone there except those that can afford to find and buy completely original cars.

'Nuff said. I agree to disagree. Just don't anyone demean me or my car because we do.

Our Ponies
http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/Mach1painted.jpg http://www.ultranet.com/~bpratt/images/65vert.jpg
 

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Firstly I am glad that we can hold this conversation at this level of calmness so that all of us can listen to each other and provide an insight to any one watching. And its always fine to disagree but you are correct words must be choosen carefully so they don't get in the way of the conversation.

" Jeff, I'm responding to your post but addressing the points raised both in yours and Laurie's. You may recall that my participation in this debate began over the use of terms such as unethical and dishonest."

I would only suggest those terms if someone was misrepresenting a car for profit (a sale) purposes. Seen too many people taken advantage of. I'll choose to stay out of that part of the exchange since that is not my intent


" In your comments about color, you note that the rules intent was to allow you to deduct points for colors that differ in appearance... But true Acapulco Blue on a car labelled as Acapulco Blue meets the intent of the rule as you've described it, regardless of whether the car was once Lime Gold."

Yes I agree at this present time with the present rules (I judge all around the country and often have to adapt myself to the rules provided. At the same time that is why I got involved nationally in an effort to make positive changes so they would in turn influence other more regional rules to the better. I believe we've done that over the last ten or more years .. Currently if I can tell or prove there has been a color change the car gets the benefit of the doubt. Even though I may know the car or someone else told me the night before (I've had competitors tell me this :(

"This debate reminds me of an earlier thread ... I still believe that, but an overly restrictive interpretation of the rules (or a requirement of proven originality such as you indicated was under consideration at one point) would eliminate a significant percentage of the cars and owners now competing in the Concours classes."

Knowing MCA I would only think that they would not be eliminated but there would be a new class established (like we need another one :) because of the number of cars out there.

"I think it is elitist to say that anyone who didn't have the opportunity to find a car in a color that they like must tolerate the color that they find in order to compete at the Concours level."

I guess this is where we will both agree to disagree. In my case I would not buy nor build a car that I was unhappy with in factory form if I wanted to show it. It would bother me (just my opinion about my cars) to know I had done that and in those 1s, 3nd, 3rd place type of shows won an award over someone who did not choose to change such a major part of the car

" It means that someone who has poured significant labor or investment (emotional or economic) into their car to make it as perfect an example of the breed as they can make it, must nonetheless consider their car less than "honest" if that included a color change to suit the owners preference. "

Would rather not place my personal choices and values on you or others especially with the use of the terms "honest" and in turn "dishonest" that would logically follow ;)

"Ah, but I can hear the argument already... The car is still honest as long as they don't change the warranty plate and so accept the 25-point deduction as the price for their color preference. If you can't tell, through normal judging observation as described in Lauries post, that the color has been changed, why should that owner be expected to start with a 25-point handicap if the rules are about quality and not strict originality. "

Since this get back to another discussion I'll choose to respond to the Concours class definition. It is my belief that the only real difference between Concours class (trailered) and the next is nor one is more focused on originality but instead one allows reproduction parts and the other does not. And that IMHO is what the car should be built towards especially if you wish to have a car that is competitive and one that can be shown for numerous years anticipating changes/improvements in the rules.


"BTW, the fact that there was consideration given to requiring provable originality and that that option was discarded further reinforces my contention that the quality of the restoration, not the strict originality of it, was the primary objective of the rules and of the MCA."

Unlike other organizations the rules are balanced pretty close to 50/50 for each. A good balance I believe. SOme other groups will look the other way in fact give additional points for a rusty/damaged original part (I mean really bad) over a very nice/exact reproduction or Ford replacement

And being part of the discussions the present choice of not checking the original configuration is not the result of any idea that it would change the focus of judging but simple $$$'s The concern that it would chance possible participants away.

"Let me also note that the original popularity of the Mustang was as a make-it-your-own vehicle. As I interpret you and Laurie, it now becomes, make it only what the original owner in 196X wanted it to be. Kinda takes some of the spirit out of the hobby,"

As with all rules there are cut off points. A place where one car falls on one side of the rules (making them not competitive) and the other at the top of the class. MCA allows for options and accessories at were available during the time of the cars production (careful wording here :) as long as it make some sense and did not void warranties or state or federal laws of the time. At the same time another national group does not allow even the change or addition of options and accessories carried in the companies catalogs of the year with out deduction.

But no reason going on with this because I don't see the connection with adding options and changing exterior color or engine size for example. We've already agreed, I think, on the current situation


" IMHO. It also means that meticulously restored color-change cars, in order to be considered as "honest", must compete in either modified or street-driven classes. Where does that leave the restomods or 10-footers? They now have to compete with Concours-quality cars? Where do they go to be competitive?"

Really no problem for them since the rules in that class deal with the situation. Showed modified for a number of years and would never have a problem (with the rules as they were) at beating any of my Concours Gold winners I've done.

"I believe that the end result of such strict interpretation of the rules will result in further erosion of support for judged shows and the organizations that run them."

Every rule change (and again we're just talking please this is not a planned change or even one I would expect to be discussed anymore in relation to the Concours classes) brings about its effect on the cars shown and unfortunately IMHO we often do not make changes which represent the real way the cars were built because of concerns of how it will effect owners and cars that are already built

"It makes the top levels of show so exclusive that there will no longer be anyone there except those that can afford to find and buy completely original cars."

Many would suggest we are already there.

" 'Nuff said. I agree to disagree. Just don't anyone demean me or my car because we do."

Won't find anyone here to do it. And I think we've found we likely agree on more than we thought we did when this started (BTW sorry for any spelling errors)

Jeff Speegle
MCA Shelby Gold Card

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6473
Mustang & Shelby research, documentation, and help.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1609818&a=12284202&p=44925357.jpg
 
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