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Discussion Starter #1
Are the fender bolts with the associated star washer body color? I am fairly certain this is a yes.

Are the trunk lid hinges, tension rod, and the tension rod retainer clip and all associated mounting hardware body color? Is there overspray on the rubber isolator that is held in place by the clip? Are the brackets the hinges bolt to body color or black?

On a GT350, in the front apron area under the aluminum trim holdown doodad under the valance there is a tab with hole used on the Mustang to attach to the hood latch assembly. On survivor GT350's I have seen a brush of black on that part of the valance. Definitely not masked off and sprayed, brush marks are visible. Did they do that on the competition cars?

Thanks,

John
 

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You're using the wrong bolts... Fender bolts did'nt use star washers up top for '65-'66. They were all "Solid" washers, and the bolt and washer was the same finish- phosphate and oil.

Star washer "HTS" bolts were used in the shock tower covers, and other parts on the front end such as front valance panel, and the Hood release assembly, grille support, etc. The only place that I can even think of a bolt with a star washer being used on the fender is maybe under the car where the valance panel meets the fender, or two bolts behind each headlight bucket on each side.

I have seen this disgusting trend take hold at car shows with newly restored cars. People are using the new Star washer "HTS design in a circle" repro'd bolts to bolt up the top sides of the fender to the fender aprons. This is totally wrong. Star washer "HTS" bolts were never used up top...ever! Always solid washer SEMS bolts! - though a few other designs did get through, They were SEMS solid washer bolts 90% of the time.. The bolt markings can be different, but they have to have solid washers.

Tony K.
 

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Maybe, I should ask the question, Where exactly did you pull these bolts from, or where are you trying to put them?

Tony K.
 

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Are the fender bolts with the associated star washer body color? I am fairly certain this is a yes.
If you're doing a GT350 clone, then the correct fender bolt for a San Jose car would be a zinc plated SEMS bolt with a round washer. Dearborn and Metuchen used phosphate & oil fender bolts with a star washer (typically). They are not body color

Are the trunk lid hinges, tension rod, and the tension rod retainer clip and all associated mounting hardware body color? Is there overspray on the rubber isolator that is held in place by the clip? Are the brackets the hinges bolt to body color or black?
The trunk lid hinges, attaching bolts, and tension rod are all body color. The rubber isolator will be black rubber.

On a GT350, in the front apron area under the aluminum trim holdown doodad under the valance there is a tab with hole used on the Mustang to attach to the hood latch assembly. On survivor GT350's I have seen a brush of black on that part of the valance. Definitely not masked off and sprayed, brush marks are visible. Did they do that on the competition cars?
I've seen production cars with and without the tab blacked out.



You're using the wrong bolts... Fender bolts did'nt use star washers up top for '65-'66. They were all "Solid" washers, and the bolt and washer was the same finish- phosphate and oil.
Tony,

How many hundreds of pictures do you want of original Dearborn and Metuchen 65/66 cars with phosphate & oil fender bolts with a star washer?

I have seen this disgusting trend take hold at car shows with newly restored cars. People are using the new Star washer "HTS design in a circle" repro'd bolts to bolt up the top sides of the fender to the fender aprons.
I'll tell you where you've seen this disgusting trend - on correct cars.

This is totally wrong. Star washer "HTS" bolts were never used up top...ever! Always solid washer SEMS bolts! - though a few other designs did get through, They were SEMS solid washer bolts 90% of the time.. The bolt markings can be different, but they have to have solid washers.
Seriously? Again, how many pictures of unrestored cars do you want?
 

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"Dearborn and Metuchen used phosphate & oil fender bolts with a star washer (typically). " - Respectfully, Heavily disagree.

I beg to differ.


Where are the pictures????????????????????????

Star washers were in no way typical for Fender bolts up top. Dearborn or otherwise, though a few exceptions exist of course, like any assembly line, If correct bolts are not available, other similar bolts get used, such as shock tower cover bolts which was a likely choice.

I've been photographing original cars for 25 years, and just recently, "Restored" cars at shows have been showing up with the repro star washer bolts installed. I've also been stripping Classic mustangs for over 25 years, and star washers are in no way "Typical"...on any plant for that matter for fender bolts up top, but some cars did get them. All I am saying here, is that it was no way "Typical" originally as was implied above.

All three plants typically used the SEMS bolts with solid washers. The only thing that possibly varried was the bolt markings and the finish. A few different bolt markings were used, but the SEMS was most common.


Seriously, Ivy, You've got to lay off the Kool-aid and relax.


Tony K.
 

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A few examples..from "Original" cars... Only Bob Fria's #2 has been restored here, but was extensively documented during disassembly.

Early Dearborn Pre-production:

Mustang #1 - Henry Ford Museum - 1964 1/2 Convertible



Mustang #2 - Bob Fria Collection - 1964 1/2 Hardtop




Dearborn (1966) Production: (My own Original unrestored Dearborn '66)




Metuchen (1966) Production:





...Another original Metuchen car...







San Jose (1966) Production:






San Jose (1966) Shelby production:







I think that you can see a "trend" here.. No?


Conclusion?

Were star washers ever used? Yes. Were they common? Not really. Probably only 10 to 20 percent of the time. Only when they ran out of regular solid washer bolts, the star washer bolts were most likely used or possibly when an assembly line worker did'nt care what bolts he was using. Again, The assembly line never stops.. You run out of one thing, Another is substituted in its place.

One can draw a conclusion that the "Original Intent" of Ford was to use the "solid" washer bolts, most of which were "SEMS" in this area.

Being subjective, And Ivy making me go do some heavy research on the subject (As our views differed), but that's what this forum is all about... At this point, I would say both are "acceptable" for all the plants, with the SEMS bolts or other marked bolts with solid washers being way more common. Way more.

It was an interesting evening study.

As always, Draw your own conclusions!

Tony K.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Am I glad I asked this question. Tony, you mentioned 25 years of dismantling. May I ask if you have a handful of SEMS bolts I can purchase and restore?

In addition the real story behind my efforts here is that I have always wanted an R model but they have been out of grasp and therefore I built one - just like they guys did in Venice. I traveled the country measuring the real deal cars and spent time in Boulder viewing the famous flying R model, #002, at the Shelby American Collection. It was amazing to me to see inner rear wheel houses that were sledge hammered towards the gas tank so Shelby could fit wider wheels and tires in. And no two wheel well openings were identical. They were rolled by hand so how could they have been.

And you must know I am a fun loving and honest person. My fender tag, which I have not installed yet, will have a serial number SFM5R-Made U Look.
 

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Tony,

After thinking about it, I'm going to bow to your 25 years of experience.

Your knowledge about late 65 Dearborn ink stamps
Dearborn, July 1965 "Paint OK" stamps??

66 power top junction blocks
http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/concours-forum/607628-convertiblejunction-block-1966-mustang-convertible.html

65/66 ratchet handles
http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/concours-forum/601873-correct-finish-jack-assembly-lug-wrench.html

and countless other topics show me how foolish I was to question you. My apologies.
 

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I think that you'll need a better comeback than that pal..

Don't you just hate it when you're wrong Ivy? I know, It really hurts.

The problem is that you can never admit it...

Did you create your own folder on me Ivy? How nice...

You really need to get a life pal..

Personal attacks will get you nowhere on this Forum...Only booted...

Notice, Ivy could not comment on the subject on hand here.. Why am I not surprised.

I wonder why he never uses his real name??? What was your old handle on here Ivy??
 

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Hey John,
I am sooooooooo glad none of my older ones are concourse or have a desire to get there, numbers correct absolutely, concourse....hell no. I could not have fun doing this if I was ready to throw down over whether or not a bolt had a star or flat washer. I can respect the details and I fully appreciate a well restored or better yet survivor car. As we have discussed in the past, NOBODY knows everything about these cars and nobody should think they do. Just when I think I am certain about something on these cars,evidence will surface to the contrary. The assembly line guys were not concerned that a bolt head was turned in a certain direction or that everything was welded on straight for that matter! (my buddy's original converible has one frame rail weld 3/4" further back than the other (factory). They were just concerned about getting it out the door, especially on a Friday afternoon!
BTW John feel free to come over and dig through my buckets-O-bolts. I'm sure I have some or both of those in there somewhere and they are yours for the taking.
Then we can argue over who has the least amount of tread left on their rear tires!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
A real freind would have blisters on his fingers from digging, but I jest and will take you up on the offer. I do have one original coming from Arizona so I now need one.

Again, I am glad I asked this question as I think many got something out of it. Concourse, clone or whatever it is nice to get it right.

Thanks Darrell - hey you up for running in the motor this week end??
 

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A real freind would have blisters on his fingers from digging, but I jest and will take you up on the offer. I do have one original coming from Arizona so I now need one.

Again, I am glad I asked this question as I think many got something out of it. Concourse, clone or whatever it is nice to get it right.

Thanks Darrell - hey you up for running in the motor this week end??
In my 30 plus years of doing mustangs, Ive seen many things that dont follow the accepted standards.

Hey, I too also have buckets of original bolts ,if you like .
Lots removed from California and Arizona cars.

PM sent
 
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