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Discussion Starter #1
Hi I have a 1968 Mustang with a new Ford Racing 302 Engine that I purchased 8 years ago the Engine code number is M6007XEFM 01 ENGINE ASSEMBLY 5.0 HIGH PERFORMANCE 340HP (FRPP) I also purchased an AOD Transmission from PATC which is called Dominator Junior Level 2, at the rear end I have an Jaguar Dana 44 IRS 3.91 ratio, with Auburn HP Posi LSD Dana Spicer, I also have a Mas Flo injection system for 68 Mustang, I take constant records of my fuel consumption it is around 9.5 - 10.5 miles per gallon which is very high, I have done everything in the car to fix this issue, now the only thing left is the EFI system, I would like to get a wideband to see my fuel/air ratio, I think that the car is running rich, also when I got stuck in the traffic, I can smell the fumes from the exhaust, please do not get me wrong I am not after economy here, just want my engine to run correctly, that will eventually contribute to high milage I guess, the computer that Mas-flo uses is Original Ford Mustang foxbody ECU which is named "A9L" so after finding out if my engine is towards running rich how will I be able to tune this ECU ? I also suspect the Maf sensor that could also be faulty, just my guess, is this way to thinking is right ? or do you suggest anything else, thanks.
 

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No answers for you but interested in some pics. How you like that Jag IRS under there?
 

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I run an older version of the MassFlo EFI setup on my Cobra Replica. It's a 347cu motor. Last time I took a long trip, I was getting around 13-15mpg on it, so sounds like you're definitely running rich.

Pull the O2 sensor off and see if they have soot all over them. I had a problem with mine a while back where it started running rich. I was literally only getting around 8mpg on the highway it was so bad.

When I pulled the 02 sensors, they had a lot of soot on them. After talking to some guys, the theory was if they start to get gummed up, that causes the system to think you're running lean and it add more fuel compounding the problem. I had so much fuel going it that it was leaking into the crankcase and when I drained the oil, it was super thin. I cleaned up the 02 sensor and was back to normal.

After that, I did wind up sending the piggy back chip to a friend (Wayne Presley at verycoolparts.com) to lean out the fuel tables just a bit and have been fine ever since. He had tuned a few Mass-Flo cars before and knew how to make the edits.

If you could find someone near you who does EFI Dyno tuning, they should be able to see where your A/F ratios are and make tweaks to the chip if needed.

MassFlo wasn't really a help...they wanted to sell me a whole new chip and wouldn't tune the one that came with the system.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I run an older version of the MassFlo EFI setup on my Cobra Replica. It's a 347cu motor. Last time I took a long trip, I was getting around 13-15mpg on it, so sounds like you're definitely running rich.

Pull the O2 sensor off and see if they have soot all over them. I had a problem with mine a while back where it started running rich. I was literally only getting around 8mpg on the highway it was so bad.

When I pulled the 02 sensors, they had a lot of soot on them. After talking to some guys, the theory was if they start to get gummed up, that causes the system to think you're running lean and it add more fuel compounding the problem. I had so much fuel going it that it was leaking into the crankcase and when I drained the oil, it was super thin. I cleaned up the 02 sensor and was back to normal.

After that, I did wind up sending the piggy back chip to a friend (Wayne Presley at verycoolparts.com) to lean out the fuel tables just a bit and have been fine ever since. He had tuned a few Mass-Flo cars before and knew how to make the edits.

If you could find someone near you who does EFI Dyno tuning, they should be able to see where your A/F ratios are and make tweaks to the chip if needed.

MassFlo wasn't really a help...they wanted to sell me a whole new chip and wouldn't tune the one that came with the system.


Thank you very much Dan, Yes I contacted Mas-Flo several times and they did not even bother to help other than trying to sell me a new programmable system, so bad,
From what I understand you take out the O2 sensors and cleaned them after cleaning them did it fix the problem, I did not understand the next part, why did you send the
piggy back chip if you fix the problem by cleaning the O2 sensons ? by piggy back do you mean the A9L Ecu ? the problem is I am in Turkey and need to find some place reliable
to have it tuned. I will try the O2 sensor cleaning, by the way how did you cleaned them ?
 

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Have you any way to communicate with the system? Stock with an A9L would take the old two plug OBD I connector and a scanner capable of reading older Fords. Many expensive scanners will but there are cheaper ones out there. There's not a lot in the datastream for you to look at but there is some if you have a scanner capable of showing you. With one you can see what the PCM sees instead of guessing. IE, the coolant temp sender says -42F when it's hot outside. That would mean the computer is happily enriching the heck out of the fuel because it thinks it's at the North Pole. Stuff like that you can see with a datastream instead of guessing.

If you do have a scanner, what is it saying about long term fuel trims and such?
 

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Look at the back of the computer and see if there is a chip sticking out the back of it. That is what's called a 'piggy back' chip. I think the mass-flow setup used to come with one. That can be programmed to make the modifications you might need to the fuel tables.

When I talked to Wayne, his experience was that the MassFlo setups were always tuned a bit too rich and he had to lean the fuel out a bit. He wasn't really a fan of the mass-flo stuff, but knew how to fix it and was fair with me on the recalibration price.

I pulled out the o2 sensors and used a nylon brush to clean them off. I think I just dipped them in gasoline for a cleaning fluid...I figured that wouldn't hurt them. Then just screwed them back in. You can make the job easier by getting an 02 socket at your local auto parts store.

I was afraid the problem would come back, so that's why I wound up getting the chip reprogrammed. If you can find any local tuning shop that can tune fox body mustangs, they should be able to help you out...pretty much any piggy back chip can be tweaked and plugged into the back of your computer since the older MassFlo stuff is designed to use the stock mustang computer. I think their new setups use their own computers.

Did the car come this way or did you put the Mass-Flo kit on it yourself? Any idea what injector size you have and is the mass-flo meter setup for that injector flow?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Have you any way to communicate with the system? Stock with an A9L would take the old two plug OBD I connector and a scanner capable of reading older Fords. Many expensive scanners will but there are cheaper ones out there. There's not a lot in the datastream for you to look at but there is some if you have a scanner capable of showing you. With one you can see what the PCM sees instead of guessing. IE, the coolant temp sender says -42F when it's hot outside. That would mean the computer is happily enriching the heck out of the fuel because it thinks it's at the North Pole. Stuff like that you can see with a datastream instead of guessing.

If you do have a scanner, what is it saying about long term fuel trims and such?
Hi I only have the OBD 1 scanner:

https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3145-Ford-Digital-Reader/dp/B000EW0KHW?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_1

will this be sufficient to check the long term fuel trims ?

or do I need another scanner that you are talking about ?
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Look at the back of the computer and see if there is a chip sticking out the back of it. That is what's called a 'piggy back' chip. I think the mass-flow setup used to come with one. That can be programmed to make the modifications you might need to the fuel tables.

When I talked to Wayne, his experience was that the MassFlo setups were always tuned a bit too rich and he had to lean the fuel out a bit. He wasn't really a fan of the mass-flo stuff, but knew how to fix it and was fair with me on the recalibration price.

I pulled out the o2 sensors and used a nylon brush to clean them off. I think I just dipped them in gasoline for a cleaning fluid...I figured that wouldn't hurt them. Then just screwed them back in. You can make the job easier by getting an 02 socket at your local auto parts store.

I was afraid the problem would come back, so that's why I wound up getting the chip reprogrammed. If you can find any local tuning shop that can tune fox body mustangs, they should be able to help you out...pretty much any piggy back chip can be tweaked and plugged into the back of your computer since the older MassFlo stuff is designed to use the stock mustang computer. I think their new setups use their own computers.

Did the car come this way or did you put the Mass-Flo kit on it yourself? Any idea what injector size you have and is the mass-flo meter setup for that injector flow?

Hi,

No the car did not come with the Mass-Flo kit, I purchased the kit and have it installed here to a Mechanic, well as far as I remember, there is only a metal box which houses the A9L I do not remember any
piggy back chip, I would appreciate if you could show a picture so that I can check, is this piggy back chip inside the metal box ecu ? I really would like to send it back to Mr Wayne, if he can do the programming with just the chip ? What do you think, so you did not send the A9L just the chip I guess
Also Mas-Flo sent me 31lb injectors, for the 340 hp 302 engine I have, but ford racing thinks otherwise, see below:


FUEL DELIVERY
1. 302 engines 600 cfm carb
2. 24 lb. injectors up to 345 hp on 8-cylinder engine (naturally aspirated)
3. 30 lb. injectors up to 430 hp on 8-cylinder engine (naturally aspirated)
4. 31 lb. injectors up to 445 hp on 8-cylinder engine (naturally aspirated)
 

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The A9L EEC-IV is for a manual trans would be programmed for 19lb injectors and not compatible with the AOD in it's stock form.

Mass-Flo either reprogrammed for the 31lb injectors at the EEC-IV or the MAF.
Maybe they reprogrammed the EEC-IV for AOD?

I also think the 31lb injectors might be too big, but don't know if that'd be an issue beyond idling.

If the EEC-IV is reprogrammed, I wonder if you can still codes. Find that out, and pull codes if you can.


You can pull codes with a jumper wire and counting the light flashes.

If you can't actually pull codes, I'd start with installing that wideband 02 sensor myself.




Disclaimer: I'm not a mechanic. I just read this stuff on the interwebs preparing for my own EFI install.
 

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If it worked right originally, and it's just now running rich, then it's probably something that needs maintenance or failed - and most likely a sensor. Could be the mass air sensor (above your throttle body) needs to be cleaned.

If it's never worked quite right, I've heard that the Mass-Flo EFI systems are very particular about intake manifolds. If you have a dual-plane manifold, it may be doing some strange stuff.

In the end, the Mass-Flo EFI setup is just a stock Ford fuel injection system, running a GM MAF with an adapter, and running it all on a 'carburetor style' intake instead of the old flop-hat Ford stuff from the late 80s/early 90s. I'm not sure how they calibrate it to work with different injectors, so if you changed injectors, that would explain why it's running so rich! However, your engine will definitely need more fuel than 19# injectors can deliver.

The A9L is a good, dependable little unit - just not real smart. The fuel curve for it will probably not be too close on your hot little stroker, unless it's been reprogrammed somehow, just for your engine. That would take some dyno work.

As much as Mass-Flo charges for their systems, I'm rather shocked to hear that they don't have good after-the-sale support!
 

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I don't have a picture...it would be sticking out of the back side of your computer. In my Cobra, the computer is behind the dash, so not easy for me to get you a shot.

What's your fuel pressure at? If your fuel pressure is a bit too high and you have what I think are oversized injectors for the power you're at, you could be pushing more fuel than you need. A little rich won't kill you, but over time it could gum up the 02 sensors.

Let's see what the 02 sensors look like when you take them out.

PS...on my 347 with 10.7:1 compression, I'm running 30 lb injectors and it's putting out quite a bit more power than your 302.
 

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Mass-Flo either reprogrammed for the 31lb injectors at the EEC-IV or the MAF.
Maybe they reprogrammed the EEC-IV for AOD?
They calibrate the MAF to match the injectors you have. I think this can also be done with a chip on the computer, but if they aren't including a chip, then it would be the MAF that's calibrated.

On my system, the MAF has the number etched into it so you know what injectors it's setup for.
 

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Your Innova thingy isn't even a scanner, it's just a code reader and no more than a bit more convenient than jumping wires and counting the light flashes so it's not what I'm referring to.

I'm talking about something that will give you info like this.


First sample image I could find out there. THis happens to be lifted from a Snap On scanner. An older one won't be capable of graph data though it's kind of neat to be able to do that. Value for your dollar is to find someone with such a capable machine and borrow. They make adapters for scanners that are mostly used for later OBD II scanning but still are software capable of doing older stuff. For one of those (if it doesn't have one) you can buy and adfpater to Ford OBD I like this:
https://www.ebay.com/p/Diagnostic-Scanner-Adapter-Cable-7pin-Male-Obd1-to-Obd2-OBDII-16pin-for-Ford/2237443099?iid=142504871719&chn=ps

As for another scanner I like to find scanners that were once top of the line but are now way outdated. That way you can get a really capable machine for cheap. Snap On is a leader there I have a woefully outdated Modis that I love. An MT2500 "red brick" is probably the bast bargain. Brand new Snap On scanners are shockingly expensive. If shopping for used stuff like that is impractical for you, Innova and Actron make some of the most capable budget stuff. A step up would be one by Autel or Launch.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hi,

Today I did a test with my OBD 1, I received an error code 96 which says:

" Fuel pump secondary circuit fault/high speed fuel pump relay open "

What could it be ?
 

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From what I looked up, could be low voltage going to your fuel pump if you're running an underdrive pulley on the motor. It will still run, but the computer doesn't think the fuel pump is getting enough voltage because the alternator is spinning to slow at lower RPMs.

Could also be bad grounds or a failing relay, but that seems to me like your fuel pump wouldn't work and the car would die intermittently or not run at all.

I doubt it's a reason why the car would run rich.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi Everyone,

I installed a wideband AFR gauge to see what my EFI doing, at idle after the engine warm up it stays at 14.7 and during driving the car it went between 12.5 - 15, can you please tell me how should I interpret it ?

Thanks
 
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