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Hey guys i recently installed a dazecars hydraulic clutch kit everything went smooth during the install except that there was a little too much slack with the steel braided line (no biggie right!?). when it was done and time to test drive the car everything was smooth then i started seeing smoke come out of the hood then the clutch pedal gave out while i was at a red light... so i got out and pushed the car the curb, when someone in the opposite incoming traffic pulled over and said my car was on FIRE!!! turns out the the hose must of melted being too close to my long tube headers and the clutch fluid was dripping on to my header luckily the headers are wrapped and there was no damage. so now my question is besides getting a shorter hose, did anyone use anything to secure the steel braided line?

thanks

(sorry for the long story)
 

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Hey guys i recently installed a dazecars hydraulic clutch kit everything went smooth during the install except that there was a little too much slack with the steel braided line (no biggie right!?). when it was done and time to test drive the car everything was smooth then i started seeing smoke come out of the hood then the clutch pedal gave out while i was at a red light... so i got out and pushed the car the curb, when someone in the opposite incoming traffic pulled over and said my car was on FIRE!!! turns out the the hose must of melted being too close to my long tube headers and the clutch fluid was dripping on to my header luckily the headers are wrapped and there was no damage. so now my question is besides getting a shorter hose, did anyone use anything to secure the steel braided line?

thanks

(sorry for the long story)
No apology needed, not anywhere near as long as my stories! I'm listening because I'm about to do my t5z swap with a hydro clutch and I'd like to learn from this. Got any pics how much clearance you had and it still melted? Were your headers non-ceramic coated and wrapped or ceramic AND wrapped?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
No apology needed, not anywhere near as long as my stories! I'm listening because I'm about to do my t5z swap with a hydro clutch and I'd like to learn from this. Got any pics how much clearance you had and it still melted? Were your headers non-ceramic coated and wrapped or ceramic AND wrapped?
sorry man i didnt take any pics but the one dazecars sells is 30" long so i got another one thats 26" long and tried rerouting it a bit but im still a little peranoid. my hooker headers are just wrapped which i think may have kind been an issue i was talking to a buddy and he thinks the wrap was acting as a wick which is what was making the fluid catch fire (mind you the clutch fluid is already highly flammable). i was just happy there was no damage.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Anyone???
 

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Maybe the solution is a longer line that gives you more flexibility to route away from the hot things.
Or maybe a hard metal line.
Or a combination of both.

In any case, you will have to figure out the best routing and make some brackets to hold it in place.
And maybe consider some insulation or heat shield for further protection.
 

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Thermal sleeves are available in various diameters and lengths to shield lines and cables. They work great in keeping things cool.
 

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I have a thermal sleeve on mine. Albeit I don't have headers, just Hi po manifolds. I've routed the 30in one neatly away from the exhaust. Used a couple zip ties to help it stay where I wanted it.

What I did have a problem with was the inability to bleed the damn system. Had to take it out of there car and bleed it on the bench with a pressure bleeder. Then had to build a standoff from the firewall to get it oriented upright to not draw more air in. THEN I had to pre load the TOB to get proper engagement.

Not the greatest master cyl and slave setup. Although it was cheap.
 

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I have a thermal sleeve on mine. Albeit I don't have headers, just Hi po manifolds. I've routed the 30in one neatly away from the exhaust. Used a couple zip ties to help it stay where I wanted it.

What I did have a problem with was the inability to bleed the damn system. Had to take it out of there car and bleed it on the bench with a pressure bleeder. Then had to build a standoff from the firewall to get it oriented upright to not draw more air in. THEN I had to pre load the TOB to get proper engagement.

Not the greatest master cyl and slave setup. Although it was cheap.
Do you know what the reason was for not being able to bleed the system Rowdy? Was it that there was a loop or someplace that an air bubble was trapped? I'm about to do the internal HydroMax hydraulic t/o bearing thing and I REALLY don't want to do it twice! I guess I can assemble the whole system; line, master cylinder and t/o bearing (with some kinda clamp-block to keep it from extending fully apart?), on the bench and vacuum bleed it? Directions says it's 'pre-bled' but really? It's in a box with only plastic caps in the ports.
 

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The wildwood master in the Daze kit is not pre bled and will not bleed unless upright. WAY easier to bench bleed it too. The CNC slave tended to trap air when in a certain position and I figured I didn't want to lay under the car for hours with my hands in a crappy spot.

I chatted with Day and he did say that it was best to bench bleed the system. Not sure about the hydromax.
 

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The wildwood master in the Daze kit is not pre bled and will not bleed unless upright. WAY easier to bench bleed it too. The CNC slave tended to trap air when in a certain position and I figured I didn't want to lay under the car for hours with my hands in a crappy spot.

I chatted with Day and he did say that it was best to bench bleed the system. Not sure about the hydromax.
Yea I'm envisioning connecting the mc, hose, passing it thru the bellhousing, connecting the internal slave and then attempting to bleed it such that the mc is way up high and the bell/slave are down low? Sound about right? Gonna make it a little more interesting when I stab my new motor/tranny as a unit I'm sure...

I'll trial fit everything.
 

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Thats the way to do it. I'm using the external slave. So I connected everything and sat the master in my vice with the aluminum jaws.

I guess You will have to slip it into the bell housing first,
 

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I just might be able to shed a little light on this subject :)

First of all the line is a good universal length. When I was designing the kit I was not designing it to sell but rather to install on my own car. I wanted enough line so there was slack to allow for transmission vibration and to also enough line to clear my headers and to be neatly routed and secured. As the kit moved from something that was a one-off and specific to my car to something that could be used in lots of different applications a balance was struck to have a decent line length with out having to much but the line does need to be routed away from heat sources. For best results use fasteners to attach the line to the firewall and keep it away from the exhaust.


Rowdy, I appreciate your input to this situation. I love how the Mustang community shares there experiences to help each other. I did however want to clarify a few things you said.

What I did have a problem with was the inability to bleed the damn system. Had to take it out of there car and bleed it on the bench with a pressure bleeder. Then had to build a standoff from the firewall to get it oriented upright to not draw more air in.
The wildwood master in the Daze kit is not pre bled and will not bleed unless upright. WAY easier to bench bleed it too. The CNC slave tended to trap air when in a certain position and I figured I didn't want to lay under the car for hours with my hands in a crappy spot.

I chatted with Day and he did say that it was best to bench bleed the system.
Hydraulic clutches can be a pain to bleed, but when set up correctly the orientation of the MC does not matter. I have installed lots of these and the MC is always clocked 90º. As long as the reservoir is mounted above the MC and the connecting hose sweeps up there should be NO issues with the MC drawing air.

The attached image is a shot of the install on my Galaxie. There were no issues bleeding the system in the car because the reservoir was above the MC and the connecting line sweeps up.

The actual problem in most cases (assuming the remote reservoir is set up correctly) is getting the air out of the slave cylinder. The cause of the issue is the tabs on the side of the trans run parallel to the trans and in most cars the trans slopes down toward the back of the car which means that the SC also slopes down toward the back of the car and thus the bleeder is not the highest point on the SC. Here are some tips that have worked for myself and others.

1. Disconnect the SC from the trans and position it so the SC bleeder IS the highest point on the SC (fairly effective)
2. let it gravity bleed fore a wile (fairly effective)
3. use a vacuum bleeder (fairly effective)
4. remove the MC and SC from the car as a complete system and bench bleed them (a bit of a pain but extremely effective)
5. rather than bleed the system use an oil can filled with brake fluid to fill the system by pumping it in at the SC bleeder. This will force the air up and out of the system as the system fills with fluid. (fairly effective)

THEN I had to pre load the TOB to get proper engagement.
Preload is something that should be used for adjustment not to make it work. The kit was designed to have the correct travel for proper clutch engagement. The most important thing is to make sure all air is out of the system before adding any adjustment. This is simply done by measuring the travel at the SC. you should get just shy of 1". If you are getting less than that there is still air in the system. In almost every case once you have 1" and you make sure the SC has been adjusted to the point where the throwout bearing is up against the pressure plate. The system should work and then you can preload it slightly to adjust where it grabs.

A lot of people think this is an issue as they are concerned about premature throwout bearing damage if its up agains the pressureplate all the time (old school wisdom and correct for old school clutch setups) but in this application the T5 throw out bearing is designed to ride up against the pressure-plate AND is designed to have a little preload on it. That is how it came with OEM cable clutches. Cables stretch and need to be made tight to take the stretch out of them so the throw out bearing was designed to have pressure on it as it road up against the pressure plate.

As to how much preload as I said before if all the air is out it should work without preload, THEN 1/16" to 1/8" of adjuster nut movement after the bearing makes contact with the pressure-plate can be added to to have the clutch feel you would like. I personally like my clutch to let loose about mid stroke.

Not the greatest master cyl and slave setup. Although it was cheap.
The MC SC combo were carefully selected to have the correct throw and when set up correctly and properly bled they work perfectly together. Wilwood and CNC are both American companies that do their manufacturing here in the states and there products are of the highest quality. Nothing about my kit is "cheap" I have sold hundreds and hundreds of these kits and and my kit has a good reputation of being both quality and affordable. A lot of aftermarket sources have quality or affordability but not both in the same product. The bottom line is if it wasn't quality I wouldn't sell it. Also I remember what it was like to have to save up for months just to get one performance part. With these two things on mind I try to price my products as reasonably as possible. No it doesn't maximize profits but it does put a little money in my pocket and gives my customers an affordable option.

For me the most important thing in this thread is if anyone has any issues with anything I have sold them please don't hesitate to contact me either by email or on a forum such as this. I stand behind the products I sell and I want everyone the be happy with their install. If its not working correctly there is probably something in the install that needs to be changed and I am happy to help you figure out what that is.

If someone has a question for me and they want to use a forum such as this to ask it, I would also appreciate a an email pointing me to the thread as I do not spend as much time on the forums as I once did. Thankfully some one sent me an email letting me know about this thread so that I could provide some input on the situation
 

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Day, I don't mean any disrespect, but the slave in my opinion does not have the throw for proper clutch actuation. 1in is simply not far enough without some preloading. I do agree that pre loading is a non issue though. I don't notice any dragging or slipping as a result. Like you said many modern hydraulic systems operate this way. It really should have an extra 1/4 to 1/2in travel in my opinion though. I did some digging and couldn't find a slave that would give more without presenting other issues though..

The CNC pieces are fine, however after multiple issues with wilwood pieces though, I can't say they are High quality. I've had to return two brake masters, a prop valve and a caliper now. I received an MC from them that didn't have threads in one of the brake line outputs! A prop valve that had an improperly machined seat.. etc.

That being said, I've read quite a few threads now on the wilwood clutch MC's failing/leaking. Hopefully we are just hearing from the minority.

I had zero issues with the pieces you sent me. I also thought the flex line was the appropriate length. I am also aware that there isn't a perfect solution to this and some compromises have to be made. I really dislike the MDL knee action setup and the Mcleod supposedly has issues as well(they tend to leak).

I built the firewall standoff to orient the inlet from the reservoir up so that should I ever have a failure on a longer trip I won't have to take the whole system out to get it to bleed. Also to get a better angle from the joint to the actuating rod. Thats really my only complaint and I understand why you have gone that route with it and it was why I bought your kit. The fewer holes I have to drill in my original sheetmetal the better!

I am curious though, how many people are running a return spring from the slave bracket to the clutch fork?
 

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All reasons why I kept the original z-bar system updated with Opentracker’s bearing/hemi-joint setup. Yea, it consumes lots of space, which limits header and steering options, but it will never break or leak.
 

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Day, I don't mean any disrespect
No disrespect taken, It's all-good. My business is basically word of mouth so I just wanted to shed my opinion on the situation, especially given the public nature of this forum.

The slave in my opinion does not have the throw for proper clutch actuation. It really should have an extra 1/4 to 1/2in travel in my opinion though. I did some digging and couldn't find a slave that would give more without presenting other issues though..
That CNC is actually good for more throw. You can easily get 1.25" out of it with out damaging it or pushing it past its tolerances, and if you went with more than 1.25” that would be way to much IMHO. The issue comes in getting enough fluid from a MC to get the extra stroke at the SC. The easiest way to fix this is to use a MC with a bigger bore. A 7/8" bore MC of the same stile as I sell will give you 1.2" of stroke at the SC. Problem is that with that extra fluid volume pedal effort goes up and the clutch becomes more sensitive. In other words there is less pedal stroke to transition from engaged to disengage. This negatively impacts how the clutch feels and makes the vehicle harder to drive.

If going with a bigger bore is not going to work than the next option would be to find a MC with more stroke. More stroke at the MC = more stroke at the SC. Problem is finding one that is compact enough to fit in the tight area around the brake MC and have a remote reservoir. There are not many options out there. After much research the wilwood unit had the remote reservoir and "enough stroke" and I could not find anything with more that met all the criteria.

That being said, I've read quite a few threads now on the wilwood clutch MC's failing/leaking. Hopefully we are just hearing from the minority.
I have seen a failure from time to time (maybe 5 in the last 10 years) but in all cases except one the issue came from improper installation. The first issue was an improperly aligned pushrod. In those cases the installer did not make sure the pushrod was roughly parallel with the bore of the MC and it created side loading.

The other times I have seen an issue was on preloaded hydraulic pressure. In other words they over tightened the adjustment on the MC pushrod to the point where the MC was always slightly engaged with the clutch pedal all the way up. (Adjustment to the MC pushrod is only there to adjust pedal height and should never pressurize the system. The second issue I have seen that causes the same problem is where the installer failed to bottom out the SC piston in the SC. If its not all the way bottomed out the pressureplate will apply pressure to the hydraulics.

In both cases the result is the same if, in the resting position, there is pressure in the hydraulics the MC will prematurely fail.

The one issue I mentioned above where the MC was simply defective, Wilwood replaced it no questions asked.

I am curious though, how many people are running a return spring from the slave bracket to the clutch fork?
Both springs should be removed. You don't need the one at the SC or the one at the pedal. It is now just like a brake system where no return spring is required. The pressure plate is what moves everything back to the unpressurized resting position.
 

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too close to header will heat the clutch fluid to vapor point, no clutch. I do not understand what everyone likes about hydraulic clutch linkages? use th stock Mustang parts and you know it is going to work. Most anyone makes headers to clear the stock linkage. Push the easy button!
 

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too close to header will heat the clutch fluid to vapor point, no clutch. I do not understand what everyone likes about hydraulic clutch linkages? use th stock Mustang parts and you know it is going to work. Most anyone makes headers to clear the stock linkage. Push the easy button!
Well if you’re like me, going from a c4 to a T5, and never having had any z bar linkages to work with, then going with a hydraulic or cable clutch seems like the only way to go.
Heck, I’ve never even seen a complete setup of a z bar so I don’t even know how to assemble one if I ever got all the parts.
 

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That CNC is actually good for more throw. You can easily get 1.25" out of it with out damaging it or pushing it past its tolerances, and if you went with more than 1.25” that would be way to much IMHO. The issue comes in getting enough fluid from a MC to get the extra stroke at the SC. The easiest way to fix this is to use a MC with a bigger bore. A 7/8" bore MC of the same stile as I sell will give you 1.2" of stroke at the SC. Problem is that with that extra fluid volume pedal effort goes up and the clutch becomes more sensitive. In other words there is less pedal stroke to transition from engaged to disengage. This negatively impacts how the clutch feels and makes the vehicle harder to drive.

If going with a bigger bore is not going to work than the next option would be to find a MC with more stroke. More stroke at the MC = more stroke at the SC. Problem is finding one that is compact enough to fit in the tight area around the brake MC and have a remote reservoir. There are not many options out there. After much research the wilwood unit had the remote reservoir and "enough stroke" and I could not find anything with more that met all the criteria.

Both springs should be removed. You don't need the one at the SC or the one at the pedal. It is now just like a brake system where no return spring is required. The pressure plate is what moves everything back to the unpressurized resting position.
That was exactly the issue I ran into when I went looking and I'm sure is why you chose that particular Wilwood master. There isn't anything compact that has additional stroke to move the slave without getting massive in size or changing pedal feel. Some have recommended the ford ranger master, but it too doesn't seem to have the travel needed.

Thanks for that! I'll leave off the springs.
 

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I do not understand what everyone likes about hydraulic clutch linkages?
First let me start by saying whatever system an individual is running, if it works well, fits in their budget and most importantly they are happy with it than that’s the system they should be running. So if you’re happy with the z-bar then fantastic. With that said I can give some insite as to why hydraulic, which is IMHO superior weather it’s my kit or someone else’s.

too close to header will heat the clutch fluid to vapor point, no clutch.
You hit the nail on the head issues with a hydraulic clutch are usually the result of an improper instillation. Hydraulics have been used for breaking for about 100 years and there is a reason brake lines are all routed away from heat sources. If the hydraulic lines are properly run this will never be an issue.


use the stock Mustang parts and you know it is going to work.
while that is true it may or may not be best given the application. IF you are NOT running a T5 and you have OEM equipment than yes the z-bar is the easiest and probably most effective way to go however it does have two drawbacks. The first is a mechanical pivot that wares with time. As long as you keep it maintained and replace the bushings as they begin to become loose it will function well but a lot of people let the bushings go to long and that can reduce the smooth action of the linkage, which causes clutch chatter. The second issue is the z-bar pivots on the engine block or bellhousing (depending on the setup) and in high torque applications as you are clutching the engine can rock, again eliminating the smooth action of the z-bar, resulting in clutch chatter. Even with those two issues there is little to no reason, IMHO, to ditch the z-bar in a 4-speed application especially if you upgrade it with heim joints and such.

With all that said going to a T5 you are no longer using stock parts and stock parts are no longer the BEST option. Its more complicated and using the OEM clutch linkage is not always going to give you the best result. There are three main ways to install a T5 in a classic Mustang while maintaining the z-bar: OEM 4-speed bellhousing with T5 adapter, T5 bellhousing with old school clutch fork and pivot block, or Aftermarket bellhousing such as a Quicktime.

If you go with the OEM bellhousing and adapter plate this is probably the best way to maintain the z-bar, have good clutch action, and keep costs to a minimum, however it has one major flaw. The issue is early Ford transmissions had much lower tolerances in relation to the input shaft, upwards of .015". This meant the bellhousings could be out of alignment by as much as .015 with no issues. The T5 on the other hand has an input shaft tolerance of .005" so if your old school bellhousing is off by more than .005" (some are some aren’t) not to mention any tolerance issues with the adapter, you will have premature failure of the inputs shaft bearing and or the pilot bearing (most common the pilot bearing) This can be fixed by using a dial indicator to take measurements and shimming the T5 adaptor but most installers don't do this step.

The second solution is to retrofit a T5 bell with an old school clutch fork. I do not personally like this option as they are way less smooth as a hydraulic clutch and not even as smooth as an OEM 4-speed setup IMHO.

The third option of an aftermarket bellhousing designed specifically to work on a T5 AND use the stock linkage is probably functional the best but big $$ so it just depends on your budget.

Because of the drawbacks to all three of these options most people go with either a hydraulic clutch or a cable clutch.

As I said before "hydraulic... is IMHO superior weather its my kit or someone else’s." There is a reason brakes went from mechanical to hydraulic. Once a hydraulic system is set up and working properly they are relatively maintenance free and the action is smooth. I would even go so far as to say a properly set up hydraulic clutch is not only lighter pedal effort and smoother action than the z-bar but you also get better clutch feel translated through the system (the change in pressure you feel against your foot as the clutch goes from engaged to disengaged)

Most of the problems people have with a hydraulic clutch happen in getting it set up correctly, and few happen after the fact due to an issue in the way it was set up, but a correctly set up system should function flawlessly with fantastic longevity just as brakes do. I have had a hydraulic clutch on my Galaxie for over 8 years and in my Mustang for more than 10, without issue.

Most anyone makes headers to clear the stock linkage.
Again a true statement but no all headers will clear the z-bar and the headers that don't clear become an option with a cable or hydraulic clutch. This is even more important if the car is not running OEM steering. If the car has been upgraded to rack and pinion or even a Bourgson type box than having more header options is a good thing. Basically the further you move fro stock the less likely stock options are to function the best/simplest.

Push the easy button!
While that may be the easiest and best option for your car it does not mean that that is a true statement for someone else’s car.

Again this is my opinion, but it is substantiated with a lot of experience and Mustang knowledge and the bottom line is as long as a person is happy with the way there car performs than that IS the correct setup for them regardless of which one they go with.
 
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