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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There was an interesting episode of Engine Masters where they test on the dyno various levels of oil in a stock and aftermarket oil pan. Too much oil reduced HP and created a drop in oil pressure at mid/higher RPM likely due to windage.

Here's the deal, I installed a 7 quart Canton pan like this:


I also run a Boss 302 style windage tray. Admittedly, both are overkill for a street car where I set the rev limit at 6,200 RPM.

"Filling" the pan after an oil/filter change is about an 8 quart affair. I am thinking that is not only overkill for the street but could be a waste of oil and detrimental to HP. If the factory got by with 5 quarts, I would think 6 would be ample especially given the better oil control in a baffled pan.

Thoughts?
 

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With a windage tray in place I would run as much oil as possible without going over the windage device. Having more oil keeps oil in the pan longer, away from the heat generated by the bearings. Once the engine is at operational temperature, the oil will lubricate better when it can shed some of the heat it picks up as it circulates thru the bearings. A simple mechanical oil temperature gauge will show an increase in oil temperature when the amount of oil in an engine is reduced.

I would beware of placing much emphasis on these horsepower tests performed by self appointed experts, few of which have spent any time in an college level engineering class. There’s more to a street engine than peak horsepower.

A little thing like longevity for example.

The use of Windage trays have little to do with rpm and are more in need when cornering or acceleration pull the oil the oil away from the pump pick up. There are benefits to even the most basic windage trays. Even moderate cornering forces could pull the pull away from the stock pick-up and oil pan arrange in my K codes. I think all engines could benefit from having something as simple as the Boss 302 type of oil pan with its build in windage tray.

Z
 

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Crankshaft is supposed to hit the oil in reservoir to splash oil on parts that are not lubricated by pressure. The “full” oil level on a stock dipstick is where oil should be no matter how deep the pan.
 

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Crankshaft is supposed to hit the oil in reservoir to splash oil on parts that are not lubricated by pressure. The “full” oil level on a stock dipstick is where oil should be no matter how deep the pan.
No it isnt.

Chris
 

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Splash lubrication doesn’t depend on the crankshaft dipping into the oil reservoir. It comes from all the oil exiting the bearings, especially the rod bearings as they are moving. Moving in both the vertical and horizontal planes as the crankshaft rotates.

Z
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The use of Windage trays have little to do with rpm and are more in need when cornering or acceleration pull the oil the oil away from the pump pick up. There are benefits to even the most basic windage trays. Even moderate cornering forces could pull the pull away from the stock pick-up and oil pan arrange in my K codes. I think all engines could benefit from having something as simple as the Boss 302 type of oil pan with its build in windage tray.

Z
Keeping oil near the pickup sounds more like the role of the baffles.

The windage tray style I have is like this:



I can see how in addition to windage it could act as a secondary baffle, but main purpose should be windage.

I would think the T shape and the baffle in the pan would do the bulk of the work to keep oil around the pickup.

 

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The faster you run your engine, the more oil will be up in the engine and not in the pan and more likely to starve the pump. That's one reason to get a bigger/deeper pan.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The faster you run your engine, the more oil will be up in the engine and not in the pan and more likely to starve the pump. That's one reason to get a bigger/deeper pan.
Very true. That's why I was thinking 6 vs the stock 5 for an engine that will only touch 6,200 on occasion. I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to install a data logger to see if at any point the oil pressure starts to drop.
 
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Crankshaft is supposed to hit the oil in reservoir to splash oil on parts that are not lubricated by pressure. The “full” oil level on a stock dipstick is where oil should be no matter how deep the pan.
I think you confused this with the Briggs & Stratton forum.


There was an interesting episode of Engine Masters where they test on the dyno various levels of oil in a stock and aftermarket oil pan. Too much oil reduced HP and created a drop in oil pressure at mid/higher RPM likely due to windage.

Here's the deal, I installed a 7 quart Canton pan like this:

That is not a baffled pan, it's a high capacity pan. There are no baffles in that sump other than the tray over the top, so there is very little oil control beyond keeping it in the sump itself.

As far as how much to run, I'd stick with Canton's recommendations.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
I think you confused this with the Briggs & Stratton forum.




That is not a baffled pan, it's a high capacity pan. There are no baffles in that sump other than the tray over the top, so there is very little oil control beyond keeping it in the sump itself.

As far as how much to run, I'd stick with Canton's recommendations.
True no active baffle doors like some pans, but the horizontal trays absolutely act as a baffle to keep oil from moving out of the well and away from the pickup on acceleration and from rolling up the side of the pan under hard cornering. Canton calls them "slosh baffles".

Canton also calls the long bar along the edge that will catch some oil a "crank scraper". I expect we both envision crank scrapers being coped to the crank. :)


I found 8 quarts would get me to the full line on my factory dipstick. Canton says 7 quart "system". I presume that system includes the filter.

To Z-Ray's point, an oil temp gauge would be nice. Much of my summer driving is a 14 mile trip to and from work. In that case I need to be sure oil is getting warm enough to burn off moisture.
 
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Crankshaft is supposed to hit the oil in reservoir to splash oil on parts that are not lubricated by pressure. The “full” oil level on a stock dipstick is where oil should be no matter how deep the pan.
Negative!
 

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With a windage tray in place I would run as much oil as possible without going over the windage device. Having more oil keeps oil in the pan longer, away from the heat generated by the bearings. Once the engine is at operational temperature, the oil will lubricate better when it can shed some of the heat it picks up as it circulates thru the bearings. A simple mechanical oil temperature gauge will show an increase in oil temperature when the amount of oil in an engine is reduced.

I would beware of placing much emphasis on these horsepower tests performed by self appointed experts, few of which have spent any time in an college level engineering class. There’s more to a street engine than peak horsepower.

A little thing like longevity for example.

The use of Windage trays have little to do with rpm and are more in need when cornering or acceleration pull the oil the oil away from the pump pick up. There are benefits to even the most basic windage trays. Even moderate cornering forces could pull the pull away from the stock pick-up and oil pan arrange in my K codes. I think all engines could benefit from having something as simple as the Boss 302 type of oil pan with its build in windage tray.

Z
Windage trays are totally to do with rpm. Cornering and acceleration are controlled with baffling in the sump.
 

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True no active baffle doors like some pans, but the horizontal trays absolutely act as a baffle to keep oil from moving out of the well and away from the pickup on acceleration and from rolling up the side of the pan under hard cornering. Canton calls them "slosh baffles".

Canton also calls the long bar along the edge that will catch some oil a "crank scraper". I expect we both envision crank scrapers being coped to the crank. :)


“.......To Z-Ray's point, an oil temp gauge would be nice. Much of my summer driving is a 14 mile trip to and from work. In that case I need to be sure oil is getting warm enough to burn off moisture.
on my vintage V-8 cars with oil pressure and oil temperature gauges, as well as on my V-8 supercharged ‘02 Jaguar XKR, the oil temperature is very much stabilized and moves in lock step with the coolant temperature. The oil temperature has been a very constant 16 to 20 degrees above the coolant temperature. On the XKR the coolant temperature usually varies between 185 to 200 degrees F. The oil temperature correspondingly is about 201 to 216 degrees F day in day out until summertime. During the summer those numbers go up about 10 degrees F on the hottest days.


Z
 

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I would think that before you slap on a big pan and a high volume pump that you would first establish a need to do so.

If oil pressure and oil temperature are within spec, then you are fixing something that isnt broke.

I looked on Summits website. Most engines making 600+ hp have a larger pan, many engines making less than 600hp have a stock pan.
 

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on my vintage V-8 cars with oil pressure and oil temperature gauges, as well as on my V-8 supercharged ‘02 Jaguar XKR, the oil temperature is very much stabilized and moves in lock step with the coolant temperature. The oil temperature has been a very constant 16 to 20 degrees above the coolant temperature. On the XKR the coolant temperature usually varies between 185 to 200 degrees F. The oil temperature correspondingly is about 201 to 216 degrees F day in day out until summertime. During the summer those numbers go up about 10 degrees F on the hottest days.


Z
I should add, personally I’d prefer to have the oil temps reach 220 F all the time, so 100% of all moisture removed from the oil. This is one of the important reasons to use the stock 190/192/or 195 thermostats.

But since this is not happening in my “modern” daily driver, I make sure to avoid short trips (under 20 minutes) so as to give the oil more time for moisture evaporation. My Blackstone Lab oil analyses results are coming back to me with 0% moisture, so I guess my driving routine is working OK.

When using a good synthetic, oil as I do, oil temperatures of 250 F or even higher are nothing to be concerned about, as the synthetic oils do not break down from temperatures way above what can be tolerated by a conventional (dino) oil.

Z
 

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Thoughts?
All that oil in a street driven car probably has the disadvantage that it takes longer time to reach the prefered operating temp = more engine wear. I got slightly more than stock amount of oil in my roller 347" and if I'm not heavy on the throttle the oil actually runs colder that I would like it to do. I use 5w-30 oil. On newer cars you rarely see ordinary oil coolers, instead they have heat exchangers from the factory, that also help getting the oil faster into operating temp.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I should add, personally I’d prefer to have the oil temps reach 220 F all the time, so 100% of all moisture removed from the oil. This is one of the important reasons to use the stock 190/192/or 195 thermostats.

But since this is not happening in my “modern” daily driver, I make sure to avoid short trips (under 20 minutes) so as to give the oil more time for moisture evaporation. My Blackstone Lab oil analyses results are coming back to me with 0% moisture, so I guess my driving routine is working OK.

When using a good synthetic, oil as I do, oil temperatures of 250 F or even higher are nothing to be concerned about, as the synthetic oils do not break down from temperatures way above what can be tolerated by a conventional (dino) oil.

Z
Earlier you made a comment about oil temps going up with less oil, thus my thought that less would help get oil up to temperature faster during short trips. Mind you, by "less" I am talking 6 vs 7 or 8 quarts.

I could end the discussion and reinstall the stock pan that I used for 35 years, put 5 quarts in and be done. Never having had an oil related failure, 5 quarts must have been adequate. Clearly the extra capacity is overkill, but since I have the volume what's the best use?

Using the volume for air:

Given a 5 quart oil system has worked for years, benefits of a larger pan and the same 5 qts of oil should be:

1.) Oil will be further way from the crank, thus less susceptible to windage.
2.) The effective crankcase volume is increased so internal pressure should go down (PV=nRT)

Using the volume for oil:

1.) Less chance of starvation
2.) Contaminants are more dilute
3.) Larger heat sink

Given that:

1.) My car is a driver that only touches 6K RPM for short bursts.
2.) I drive <3,000 miles per year w/ synthetic oil and change annually

I am going to split the baby and go with 6 quarts, which I believe to be conservative for my use.

Yes, I over think it. It's what I do. :)
 

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Crankshaft is supposed to hit the oil in reservoir to splash oil on parts that are not lubricated by pressure. The “full” oil level on a stock dipstick is where oil should be no matter how deep the pan.
Just FYI, on engines that use splash oiling you will find and extension on the crank end of the connecting rod called a dipper. Its purpose is to reach into the oil and splash it. Splash oil systems generally do not have an oil pump, and rpm is limited usually to about 3600.
 

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I would still use the full capacity of the oil pan, whatever that was. I never run the engine hard until the coolant temp and by extension the oil temp are up to normal.

I think the oil is reaching its normal temp about the same time whether it’s 5 or 7 quarts. Now it we start doubling the oil capacity and or using a dry sump/ remote oil reservoir, well that’s different. Those situations usually come about because the car is in racing situations and the oil is getting too hot with a normal wet sump arrangement and the standard amount of oil.

Z
 
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