Vintage Mustang Forums banner

1 - 6 of 6 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,060 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
First, I have no cut ups, chopped, malaligned, or shadowy Mustangs I am trying to pawn off. I have owned over 300 Mustangs, scrapped bunch, and fixed up a ton. I was a bodyman with a draft number of 18 :( so the bodywork career ended, going to work for Uncle Sam.

So, here is goes: How much Mustang does it take to have a VIN? On my 1964 and 1966 convertibles, I have 3 panels forward of the firewall with a VIN. Does that mean I can replace EVERYTHING including the firewall back off a DONOR car, and be legit? Since the VIN's are up high, how about also replacing the frame rails, shock towers, and core support? Since I can also buy the front and rear aprons, if I "surgically remove" (term mentioned before) and weld back in the VIN's? With this perverse logic, I have 13 ounces of steel with some numbers on them, with EVERYTHING else legitimately replaced.

My own experience included a 1966 convertible, totalled in 1967, that, before being finally laid up, had the entire rear end, from between the front and rear seats, replaced, and also the radiator core support from left front corner rightward to include the entire right framerail, shock tower and inner, outer fendor aprons, ending at the firewall. All the parts from various donor cars. My estimate was that there was 20% of the original car left. And this poor car died in another wreck after all this!

I had a car that had the rear aprons, cowl, dash, and door posts replaced after a fire with donor parts. The rear VIN's were not saved, but I consider this car still legitly and correctly VIN'd.

Growing up in Los Angeles, and having a Model A Ford (still have it), there was a lot of street rodding. You can buy bodies all day long, as they unbolt. The "serial number" was stamped, barely on most, maybe on many, on the frame. It did not differentiate coupe, roadster, Tudor, etc. If you needed a frame, you went to the old Ford parts store, where they had a box of Pink Slips (California Titles) and a pile of frames out back. Just take one of each for $100, and you now owned a Model A around which you MIGHT use that frame, but you had a title.

So, how much is tool much before the VIN is toast. By weight, by volume, by custom?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,759 Posts
The real question is if a bear poops in the woods, and there is noone there...does it stink?

My poor beauty below is having everthing from the shock towers forward cut off, plus the entire trunk floor, the bottom of the back quarters and a little frame rail work.
The hood, front fenders and doors will be original ford but not from this car. I still consider it the same car...but if I ever sell it (which I won't) I will definitly disclose the surgery it has had.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,654 Posts
the VIN is in the eye of the beholder....

I think the REAL issue with VINs mainly lies in the high end cars and the money that is paid out for them. I had to chuckle when individuals at this forum questioned the "VIN integrity issue" on the blue 66 fastback done on Overhaulin', even though the original VIN was a T-code 6 cylinder! Personally, being from Southern California myself, I prefer NO cars that have had any type of extensive rust or collision repairs that required a lot of cutting out of original metal. But I have that luxury living in this part of the country. I think the REAL issue is that if VINs are rearranged in a way to deceive an intended buyer into believing something that car really isn't. If everything is disclosed PRIOR to the sale, including the fact that certain pieces have been replace and that the ORIGINAL VIN is from the car repaired, I see no problems. Its when a "plain jane" car is taken and has transplanted VINs from high end cars that problems begin....

randy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
678 Posts
The law is vey confusing on the subject of removing or replacing VIN numbers. Looking under U.S. Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 25, Section 511, it would appear that removing or altering a VIN is not illegal IF it is necessary in the repair of the vehicle and that vehicle is not stolen. It doesn't specifically address rebodying except in the case of stolen vehicles.
The section is quoted below:

Sec. 511. - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who -

(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or

(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(b) (1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).

(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are -

(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;

(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and

(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by -

(i) the owner or his authorized agent;

(ii) applicable State or local law; or

(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

Now that it is clear as mud....

Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
678 Posts
Title 18, Part 1 Chapter 25 Section 2321 also contains this:

Sec. 2321. - Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts

(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(b) Subsection (a) does not apply if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration -

(1) is caused by collision or fire; or

(2) is not a violation of section 511 of this title.

(c) As used in this section, the terms ''identification number'' and ''motor vehicle'' have the meaning given those terms in section 511 of this title.


Section 511 is spelled out in my earlier post.

Steve
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,774 Posts
I'm glad that you took the trouble to look all that up .
I've been restamping replacement aprons for several years with the correct size and font .I've even done them for the local Ford dealerships body shop . WITH the blessings of the State Patrol .
These are a quicky on some .009" material .
There are several VMFers that have sent new aprons to me for stamping before installation .

http://home.comcast.net/~burgandycv/wsb/media/170132/site1201.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~burgandycv/wsb/media/170132/site1202.JPG
 
1 - 6 of 6 Posts
Top