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So, i did a search but the posts all seemed somewhat old, so hoping for some specific recommendations. Looking at ways to make my 65 fastback a daily driver. One change seems to be changing the points and condenser with an electronic system. The reviews seem to be all over the place on the Pertronix II, either its junk, or its great. Also, is this as easy as the site states. Ive got the 289. There are three components they look to sell for the upgrade, the ignitor, the coil and the power relay kit. Is all of this hype or is this worth doing?
 

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My Pertoronix is on it's 3rd engine. Started when I replaced my points and condenser in 2005 on a 302. that engine died and I replaced it with a '75 351W and used it on that distributor... then 11 years later the block cracked and I replaced it with a rebuilt '72 351W in 2016, and I'm still using the same Pertronix on this distributor.
Whatever version of Pertronix was available in 2005 is the one I have... Maybe it's 1, maybe it's 2... Whatever it is, after 15 years and 3 engines, I have no complaints.
 

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Cant; speak to the Pertronix II, but I have the original Pertronix module. Super easy to install, but did have to supply 12V power.
I've never had an issue in ~ 20 years, but always carry the points with me just in case.
 

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Thanks for the replies. Since I just got this car, I am fighting the urge to just start changing parts and systems. I have decided to make it a good driver for me and not worry about trying to keep all original. I appreciate the original, but the previous owner already had a respray so not a true survivor. Working on getting the most critical issues corrected that will help the driving. First is the rear axle bearings and seals that were leaking. Next probably brakes, wheels and tires. Thinking of going with 15 inch and front and rear disc kit. Also, hoping to get some local advice, maybe need some carburetor work or a new one, car hesitates to almost stalling from start. And, for those of you in Texas, you will know, I need air in this car. Just trying to sort all of this out, all overwhelming.
 

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My advice, focus your time, energy and money on making it safe, before attempting to change systems or performance. Concentrate on brakes, suspension, general tune reliability. Then drive and enjoy. After which, as you learn more about the path you choose for performance and your budget has improved, you'll be better equipped to make good choices.
 
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Your last post has a lot of information. I'll get to that later. For now, about the Pertronix:

- Yeah, I've seen a lot of the same contradictory information about the Pertronix units. I've even seen one guy who SWORE he had multiple, 55 gallon drums full of dead Pertronix units. (Um, OK...)

- It's a given some electronic modules will have problems out of the box. It's a given some electronic modules will fail prematurely. It is the nature of mass-produced electronics.

- Personally, I suspect a lot of the failures (no, not every failure) are due to the fact whomever installed the module did not successfully supply a full 12 volts as is required. Bypassing that factory resistor wire is something not everyone is willing to do. And hey, it runs fine with that resistor wire, so all is good, right? Apparently not.

- I'm running a Pertronix III module in my 351 Cleveland. It works very well. It has a rev limiter, which I like. However, the rev limiter is kinda strange. Instead preventing the engine from winding past the specified RPM, and keeping it just below that specified RPM, it immediately puts the engine at idle and keeps it there for a few seconds. At least, that's the way mine seems to work.

- Be aware there's nothing wrong with the factory ignition points. When in good condition, and when properly calibrated, points work great. With a little maintenance, they will last a long time. If points ever stop working, you can always make them work again; at least well enough to get you home. Not so with a Pertronix module. If it dies, you have no ignition whatsoever until you install an new module; or swap it back to points.

Now, as for those other issues...

- If your Mustang is not a rare and desirable car, like a Shelby or a Boss, don't sweat the originality thing. It's your Mustang. Build it however you like. As long as you don't do something really goofy (like grafting a giant unicorn horn onto the hood) it won't lower the value.

- Yeah, fix those leaking seals! :)

- As for brakes, yeah, all the car TV shows display huge, shiny aftermarket disc kits for front and rear. Be aware that's because those brakes were donated by the manufacturer to show off and not because it's what's necessary. Rear discs look cool and they can provide excellent braking for track conditions. Be aware putting rear discs on a classic Mustang can also present many challenges. Do some searching here and you'll find a lot of hair-pulling over rear discs. However, some people, like Kelly-H, have done it with very good results. A key point here is that running discs on the street will likely not give you a big boost in performance. You can get very good braking from factory, rear drums if they are installed and adjusted correctly. It is a fact that drums are more complex and can be a pain in the neck. If you simply can't stand working on drum brakes, cool. Go ahead and install rear discs. Just don't assume it's essential.

- 15" discs up front. Wow, you're going to need some HUGE wheels. Be sure you know what you're getting into. These cars were not designed for 20" wheels. You can certainly throw away the entire factory suspension and install something modern. But again, it's really not necessary. As an example, I have Kelsey Hayes 4-piston discs up front and I really like them. I'm running 16" wheels and I'm very happy with them.

Have fun!
 

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Thanks for the replies. Since I just got this car, I am fighting the urge to just start changing parts and systems. I have decided to make it a good driver for me and not worry about trying to keep all original. I appreciate the original, but the previous owner already had a respray so not a true survivor. Working on getting the most critical issues corrected that will help the driving. First is the rear axle bearings and seals that were leaking. Next probably brakes, wheels and tires. Thinking of going with 15 inch and front and rear disc kit. Also, hoping to get some local advice, maybe need some carburetor work or a new one, car hesitates to almost stalling from start. And, for those of you in Texas, you will know, I need air in this car. Just trying to sort all of this out, all overwhelming.
Keep fighting the urge ! Unless your brakes are absolutely eefed up somehow,just make sure they are safe and drive it for awhile.
Fix the leaks as needed.
Pertronix is fine, I`ve had mine for a longtime.
 

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Pertronix? Yeah, I have an Ignitor I in my distributor.... it came with the car when I bought it 20+ years ago. It still works. If it dies I'll put points back in it. Why? a) Points, unlike a solid-state electrical device, aren't going to suddenly crap out and leave you by the side of the road fumbling for your AAA card in the darkness. b) I don't mind a yearly inspection, a little filing, and re-gapping. c) I don't need to do any fancy re-wiring or replacing of the coil or other components.

If I was doing a new build (like the one I'm helping my BFF with), I'd go DurasparkII. Why? a) Ford distributor. Regular cap & rotor. Advance mechanism curves just like a points unit. b) ECU (control unit) isn't part of the pick-up so it's not located inside the distributor and subject to the heat and hi-tension magnetic fields, like the Pertronix. (I like the MOPAR ECU by the way) c) Original resistance wire feed to coil isn't disturbed. Only wiring needed is harness between distributor and ECU and switched ignition to ECU. d) I wouldn't be concerned about accidentally leaving the key "on" and the engine not running and finding my Pertronix has "done a Cheech 'y Chong" (gone "Up In Smoke").
 

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So, i did a search but the posts all seemed somewhat old, so hoping for some specific recommendations. Looking at ways to make my 65 fastback a daily driver. One change seems to be changing the points and condenser with an electronic system. The reviews seem to be all over the place on the Pertronix II, either its junk, or its great. Also, is this as easy as the site states. Ive got the 289. There are three components they look to sell for the upgrade, the ignitor, the coil and the power relay kit. Is all of this hype or is this worth doing?
You will have to excuse me a little here, but, what is more reliable than points......certainly not the more popular & common “e-box replacement kits”. Yes you can hear people state "It runs so much smoother/better than when it had points"........in each case that an individual said that in my presence, they had very little knowledge about points and the ones they were running were- old & tired or inexpensive aftermarket replacement units or the individual (including professional mechanic) was unfamiliar with not just setting the gap to OEM specs, but setting the dwell & initial timing to what the engine likes.

But let’s look at the OEM ignition system from the early 60’s….
Original Coil Voltage: 20,000; by the end of the 60’s 40,000 volt high performance coils were common…..by the 70’s 50,000 & 60,000 volt coils were easily available & is what we have today. Did we really gain all sorts of HP/TQ with all this extra voltage…….no, what we were able to gain was stronger support (if you will excuse my terms here) for higher RPM’s- specifically in the 6,000+ range…..enough to power NASCAR engines in the 8,000 rpm range at 200+ mph!

Points were used in NASCAR up through the late 1970's, running speeds of 200mph+.........Cale Yarborough did lose a race one time because the ignition points broke. In a street application, if you look at the data very closely that is provided by these more common e-box companies, in street applications (where max power-band RPM is around 6000), when the standard dyno deviation is removed (5% standard per every dyno mfg) there is less than 1% improvement in performance. Further testing by independent aftermarket DIS (direct ignition system) manufacturers verify this through their own testing- there is little gain over an ignition points system until you reach 4000 rpm…then you begin to see a slight sustainment of ignition delivery above what points can deliver but it doesn’t even begin to compare to what a “modern”, real e-based system can & does deliver in a real world street (and race) environment.
I am not promoting this product but their analysis is very accurate of the misleading PR docs pertronix & others have…... Compu-Tronix. Electronic Ignition Systems

link: http://www.compu-tronix.com/MightyMo...risonGraph.pdf
The other item is, in a street vehicle, if you wait to see improvement until 4000+ rpm, the race is over.

Here is a link to a back to back ¼ runs- comparison of points vs a couple of e-box conversions……..no discernible difference PerTronix Track Test

These e-box “conversion kits” have literally the same design limitations as the “conventional points”- because they are essentially using the same delivery system (rotor, cap, wires, etc.) and they are subject to the same inherent design impactors of which there are numerous….including ozone that is produced within the cap…..none of this has by miracle “disappeared” and in fact when compared in true recorded data-frame analysis, the benefit will be gone by 5800 rpm and the loss, although slightly less, parallels that of points. In racing conditions that could very well make a difference, but in a street application, you could literally change brand of fuel and see that level of improvement or degradation. Additionally, there are companies such as ProComp whose “High-Tech Multiple Discharge Ignition Systems” are nothing more than re-boxed low tech conversion parts purchased in bulk from other companies- mostly Chinese-based. Check out this pic procomp ignition box?? of a “new” ProComp e-ignition system- it’s a glued together GM part stuffed into a pretty aluminum box. Considering they were sued in 2006 by MSD (and prohibited as part of a settlement from using/distributing any of their parts), I’m not surprised by anything I see with their crap….but this includes much of the e-box aftermarket industry- a lot of PR documents which physics does not play any part!

Very good quality ignition points/condensors are available and when set properly, are very reliable and provide excellent performance. There have been no less than 5 people who I personally knew were going to get e-boxes, then I had them get a good set of points/condenser, a high voltage (40k+) coil, and installed them showing them specifically how to do it......the engines ran smooth and strong. One person did end up buying an e-box, why, because he said he just got tired of not being "cool", after spending $500 for a distributor, etc (he went “Popular” high end), a year later (when he asked me to help him fix something) he admitted, it was a waste of $...it didn't run any better than after we put the points in.

While many state the positives of e-boxes (and there are certainly many positive attributes), there are conditions which reduce an e-boxes effectiveness & reliability....to start with the circuitry and handling (container vessel shipping) of it from China (which is where 90% of the more common/popular e-box company's products originate). Any aspect including temperature control, static safeguards, moisture can & will cause both detectable and undetectable damage which may not show up until after you have subjected the installed component to real world vibrations, heat, cold, moisture & grease/oil. Yes, all of these damage e-components, but the systems (based upon a variety of factors) are suppose to be prepared to endure these exposures but that is based upon many, many assumptions. Including proper handling & q/a.......given all of the 3rd party involvement in the final product, it is unrealistic (IMHO) to believe that e-boxes have an increased reliability as compared to their mechanical-based counterpart. And in terms of “Dwell Control” I won’t even go into that in detail but I will say, what the “kits” provide is a joke…..you can actually get more control over the dwell by having an understanding of how to set timing versus dwell setting with points than the most popular e-box conversion kits can provide…..which makes for a very smooth running engine- this is not just IMHO, but well known among the "higher quality" aftermarket engineers whose systems reflect this ability to "tune"!
If you need to say I got rid of my points…ok, that’s fine, but if you are really serious about actually upgrading the ignition system then do so……although it has been scrapped by the OEM’s in favor of more advanced, effective systems, there are aftermarket DIS units (yes the same as Ford used in the 90’s & developed by Porsche in the 80’s) whose cost is within reach of most buyers and will actually perform as stated.

With all that said, although I am not a fan of MSD, I did see where they just introduced a coil -on-plug system for the old school engines....... now that might very well be an upgrade to look into!
 
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I ran a P1 and msd 6 for 20 yrs off the resistance wire. Car ran well never had any issues.

When Tim redid my dizzy about 10 yrs ago it came back with points and my P1 in a bag.

When I called him he said leave it alone

I did. And also removed the msd box

Car runs just as good and id never know it still didn't have HEI

Just recently after about 5000 miles I reset the dwell and timing

Like everyone said points won't leave you stuck but a shorted cond will give you no spark.
You just need to disconnect it and keep on driving. Happened to me twice in almost 40 yrs.

The first time was hell to figure out 2 hours on the shoulder. The second time it was the first thing I checked for
 
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So with the points, when the apparently imminent magnetic polar thingy happens you will be able to drive about and thumb your nose at everyone else until you run out of gas. I've run P 1's on a dozen cars and trucks with no failures and they work great. As far as rear brakes, I am pretty competitive in autocross with the original rear drum brakes, as in they are the original 1964 drums! All bargain rear disk brake kits offer at best a parking brake, not an emergency brake. I'm not willing to give up the ability to lock up the rear brakes if necessary using the e-brake handle.
 

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You will have to excuse me a little here, but, what is more reliable than points......certainly not the more popular & common “e-box replacement kits”. Yes you can hear people state "It runs so much smoother/better than when it had points"........in each case that an individual said that in my presence, they had very little knowledge about points and the ones they were running were- old & tired or inexpensive aftermarket replacement units or the individual (including professional mechanic) was unfamiliar with not just setting the gap to OEM specs, but setting the dwell & initial timing to what the engine likes.

But let’s look at the OEM ignition system from the early 60’s….
Original Coil Voltage: 20,000; by the end of the 60’s 40,000 volt high performance coils were common…..by the 70’s 50,000 & 60,000 volt coils were easily available & is what we have today. Did we really gain all sorts of HP/TQ with all this extra voltage…….no, what we were able to gain was stronger support (if you will excuse my terms here) for higher RPM’s- specifically in the 6,000+ range…..enough to power NASCAR engines in the 8,000 rpm range at 200+ mph!

Points were used in NASCAR up through the late 1970's, running speeds of 200mph+.........Cale Yarborough did lose a race one time because the ignition points broke. In a street application, if you look at the data very closely that is provided by these more common e-box companies, in street applications (where max power-band RPM is around 6000), when the standard dyno deviation is removed (5% standard per every dyno mfg) there is less than 1% improvement in performance. Further testing by independent aftermarket DIS (direct ignition system) manufacturers verify this through their own testing- there is little gain over an ignition points system until you reach 4000 rpm…then you begin to see a slight sustainment of ignition delivery above what points can deliver but it doesn’t even begin to compare to what a “modern”, real e-based system can & does deliver in a real world street (and race) environment.
I am not promoting this product but their analysis is very accurate of the misleading PR docs pertronix & others have…... Compu-Tronix. Electronic Ignition Systems

link: http://www.compu-tronix.com/MightyMo...risonGraph.pdf
The other item is, in a street vehicle, if you wait to see improvement until 4000+ rpm, the race is over.

Here is a link to a back to back ¼ runs- comparison of points vs a couple of e-box conversions……..no discernible difference PerTronix Track Test

These e-box “conversion kits” have literally the same design limitations as the “conventional points”- because they are essentially using the same delivery system (rotor, cap, wires, etc.) and they are subject to the same inherent design impactors of which there are numerous….including ozone that is produced within the cap…..none of this has by miracle “disappeared” and in fact when compared in true recorded data-frame analysis, the benefit will be gone by 5800 rpm and the loss, although slightly less, parallels that of points. In racing conditions that could very well make a difference, but in a street application, you could literally change brand of fuel and see that level of improvement or degradation. Additionally, there are companies such as ProComp whose “High-Tech Multiple Discharge Ignition Systems” are nothing more than re-boxed low tech conversion parts purchased in bulk from other companies- mostly Chinese-based. Check out this pic procomp ignition box?? of a “new” ProComp e-ignition system- it’s a glued together GM part stuffed into a pretty aluminum box. Considering they were sued in 2006 by MSD (and prohibited as part of a settlement from using/distributing any of their parts), I’m not surprised by anything I see with their crap….but this includes much of the e-box aftermarket industry- a lot of PR documents which physics does not play any part!

Very good quality ignition points/condensors are available and when set properly, are very reliable and provide excellent performance. There have been no less than 5 people who I personally knew were going to get e-boxes, then I had them get a good set of points/condenser, a high voltage (40k+) coil, and installed them showing them specifically how to do it......the engines ran smooth and strong. One person did end up buying an e-box, why, because he said he just got tired of not being "cool", after spending $500 for a distributor, etc (he went “Popular” high end), a year later (when he asked me to help him fix something) he admitted, it was a waste of $...it didn't run any better than after we put the points in.

While many state the positives of e-boxes (and there are certainly many positive attributes), there are conditions which reduce an e-boxes effectiveness & reliability....to start with the circuitry and handling (container vessel shipping) of it from China (which is where 90% of the more common/popular e-box company's products originate). Any aspect including temperature control, static safeguards, moisture can & will cause both detectable and undetectable damage which may not show up until after you have subjected the installed component to real world vibrations, heat, cold, moisture & grease/oil. Yes, all of these damage e-components, but the systems (based upon a variety of factors) are suppose to be prepared to endure these exposures but that is based upon many, many assumptions. Including proper handling & q/a.......given all of the 3rd party involvement in the final product, it is unrealistic (IMHO) to believe that e-boxes have an increased reliability as compared to their mechanical-based counterpart. And in terms of “Dwell Control” I won’t even go into that in detail but I will say, what the “kits” provide is a joke…..you can actually get more control over the dwell by having an understanding of how to set timing versus dwell setting with points than the most popular e-box conversion kits can provide…..which makes for a very smooth running engine- this is not just IMHO, but well known among the "higher quality" aftermarket engineers whose systems reflect this ability to "tune"!
If you need to say I got rid of my points…ok, that’s fine, but if you are really serious about actually upgrading the ignition system then do so……although it has been scrapped by the OEM’s in favor of more advanced, effective systems, there are aftermarket DIS units (yes the same as Ford used in the 90’s & developed by Porsche in the 80’s) whose cost is within reach of most buyers and will actually perform as stated.

With all that said, although I am not a fan of MSD, I did see where they just introduced a coil -on-plug system for the old school engines....... now that might very well be an upgrade to look into!
All very valid points. (OMG! Another pun!)

One comment about coil voltage... The typical fuel/air mixture in a carbureted engine ignites pretty easily when using a spark plug with a good conductor (copper) and typical gap (.032-.035"). Ignition systems with increased coil output (GM HEI, MOPAR Lean Burn, Ford EEC, etc.) came about because engineers made fuel mixtures harder to ignite by recirculating spent exhaust gases (EGR) into the intake stream to reduce emissions and increased spark plug gap. Then, they further increased plug gap and moved to plugs with poorer conductors (platinum, iridium) to improve spark plug longevity to effectively eliminate "tune up" intervals. About the only thing you're improving on the typical "mild-street" engine by installing fancy ignition systems is aftermarket vendor profitability.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
You guys are freaking awesome, thanks for all of the input and advice. Regarding wheels, correct, I meant 15 inch wheels, not discs. I am totally gonna focus on safety and reliability first and just let the rest brew for a while. I took the car to the shop to replace the rear axle bearings and seals since the buyer said that it was leaking and actually bought the parts and had them delivered to my house. How awesome is that. I went to check on the car and three mechanics met with me and just wanted to show me the undercarriage and how nice everything was and how original. They loved my car, which I appreciate. The also said two of the brake cylinders were leaking and although I could, the cost was minimal, so I had them replaced. These drums might work pretty well after the fix, and if so, ill keep them. So, I guess we dont have many of these cars right here in River City, because the mechanics said that while the car was in the shop, they had people pulling off the street to look at the car. I'm just so happy this long distance purchase worked, it was scary. Thanks for the help and I'll be here a lot.
 

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So, i did a search but the posts all seemed somewhat old, so hoping for some specific recommendations. Looking at ways to make my 65 fastback a daily driver.
you are already set in having a daily driver car. I may be verging on my 70th birthday but I still can easily recall driving all over the USA coast to coast in cars with points ignitions, and even up the entire north-south range of the Andes Mountains from Chile to Colombia in a Mustang that had a points / coil ignition system. I know it sounds incredible, but the roads in the USA of the 1960’s and 1970’s were not clogged with cars that broke down or died due to having a points ignition system.
Your stock ignition is very reliable, and can be trouble free if you just give it a very little attention once and a while. In less time than it’s takes to read this topic you can have your stock ignition set perfectly and forget about it for another year, or longer, depending how much you drive. 20- 30 minutes every 7,500 to 10,000 miles you will have a well maintained and trouble free ignition system.

ask yourself, “why do I have a vintage car ?”

if it’s just to look cool then go ahead and get new everything under the hood and have yourself a fine time posing in a new vehicle with old styling.

but if you are interested in knowing the 1960’s technology and how it works then have your distributor overhauled by the Mustang Barn and it will be just as dependable, or more so, than any electronic ignition system. Then learn how to adjust the points and timing every 7,500 to 10,000 miles and you will have given your car more maintenance than my parents gave our Fords. And none of them ever broke down.

I drank the Kool-aid and have had plenty of cars with so called “upgraded” ignitions. Both Pertronix and MSD. None of them started any easier, or ran stronger than a car with a stock ignition that’s been maintained yearly for a half hour or so. About 10 years ago a master technician at a Mustang & Shelby restoration shop owner talked me into going back to a points ignition and I’ve been very happy with the results. The engine compartment is cleaner, and the reliability of the stock ignition has been way better than most of the Pertronix products.

save the $$$ that these so called upgrades will cost and put the money where it belongs, in your gas tank.

Z
 

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I don't particularly enjoy adjusting points so I tried an Ignitor. It worked about 5 years then it just quit when I turned the car off and it wouldn't re-start, so I just swapped in my points plate with condenser, it fired right up. I ordered another one and it has been running 23 years now. Not a hiccough. If it quits tomorrow, I got my money's worth, from store trips to boulevard cruises, up to 7 hour highway trips and some ridiculously high speed jaunts years ago well above 5500 rpm... and I will order another one. I still have the same points plate in my glove box. My son's car is running fine on points. I may change it when it needs it, but not before ! Then I'll throw his points plate in the glove box...
 
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All very valid points. (OMG! Another pun!)

One comment about coil voltage... The typical fuel/air mixture in a carbureted engine ignites pretty easily when using a spark plug with a good conductor (copper) and typical gap (.032-.035"). Ignition systems with increased coil output (GM HEI, MOPAR Lean Burn, Ford EEC, etc.) came about because engineers made fuel mixtures harder to ignite by recirculating spent exhaust gases (EGR) into the intake stream to reduce emissions and increased spark plug gap. Then, they further increased plug gap and moved to plugs with poorer conductors (platinum, iridium) to improve spark plug longevity to effectively eliminate "tune up" intervals. About the only thing you're improving on the typical "mild-street" engine by installing fancy ignition systems is aftermarket vendor profitability.
Very, very well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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you are already set in having a daily driver car. I may be verging on my 70th birthday but I still can easily recall driving all over the USA coast to coast in cars with points ignitions, and even up the entire north-south range of the Andes Mountains from Chile to Colombia in a Mustang that had a points / coil ignition system. I know it sounds incredible, but the roads in the USA of the 1960’s and 1970’s were not clogged with cars that broke down or died due to having a points ignition system.
Your stock ignition is very reliable, and can be trouble free if you just give it a very little attention once and a while. In less time than it’s takes to read this topic you can have your stock ignition set perfectly and forget about it for another year, or longer, depending how much you drive. 20- 30 minutes every 7,500 to 10,000 miles you will have a well maintained and trouble free ignition system.

ask yourself, “why do I have a vintage car ?”

if it’s just to look cool then go ahead and get new everything under the hood and have yourself a fine time posing in a new vehicle with old styling.

but if you are interested in knowing the 1960’s technology and how it works then have your distributor overhauled by the Mustang Barn and it will be just as dependable, or more so, than any electronic ignition system. Then learn how to adjust the points and timing every 7,500 to 10,000 miles and you will have given your car more maintenance than my parents gave our Fords. And none of them ever broke down.

I drank the Kool-aid and have had plenty of cars with so called “upgraded” ignitions. Both Pertronix and MSD. None of them started any easier, or ran stronger than a car with a stock ignition that’s been maintained yearly for a half hour or so. About 10 years ago a master technician at a Mustang & Shelby restoration shop owner talked me into going back to a points ignition and I’ve been very happy with the results. The engine compartment is cleaner, and the reliability of the stock ignition has been way better than most of the Pertronix products.

save the $$$ that these so called upgrades will cost and put the money where it belongs, in your gas tank.

Z
Very well said as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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