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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
If the brown wire is removed from the "I" terminal and the purple is still connected to the "I" terminal, as soon as the key is released from "start", the starter solenoid should open, removing power from the purple wire, which turns off the Pertronix relay and power to the Ignitor is cut. So the engine should stop as soon as the key comes off start.
What you describe makes no sense unless it is not wired as the drawing shows. With the brown wire disconnected, you should not have power on the purple wire unless the key is in start.
I considered that the Pertronix relay may be a latching type, but even that doesn't make sense, since latchers require a reverse pulse to change state, or more wires.
I would take these steps:
1. Make sure no extraneous wires are connected- only those shown in the diagram
2. Take the wire from the distributor to the coil off. Set your meter to DC volts and connect one side to starter solenoid "I" and the other lead to chassis. With the key off there must to zero voltage. With the key on there must be 12v.
3. With everything off, disconnect Pertronix relay wires red and orange. Take an ohm reading, on the orange and red, which should be infinite- no continuity. Hook up the purple wire to battery + and black to chassis. Take an ohm reading on the orange and red and it should be close to zero.
OK first with a correction. with it wire in post 27 and brown wire removed it will crank with no start.
I checked all the continuity of the relay connector and they are good.

2. wires removed from distrib. 0 volts off, 11.9v on. good

3. all wires removed. Orange to red no continuity. purple to + battery , black to neg bat. . continuity check between red Relay wire and Orange relay wire . Jumps from 34 ohms and quickly drops to .2 ohms. I can gear the relay click when I energize purple and black with 12 volts.
 

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3. all wires removed. Orange to red no continuity. purple to + battery , black to neg bat. . continuity check between red Relay wire and Orange relay wire . Jumps from 34 ohms and quickly drops to .2 ohms. I can gear the relay click when I energize purple and black with 12 volts.
With the relay off- purple disconnected- you have somewhere between 34 and .2 ohms between red and orange wires??
If that is what you are saying, then the Pertronix relay is toast. Go to the auto parts store and buy a Bosch relay 12vdc coil, with common and normally open contacts- C and NO. Contacts 10A or greater should be fine. Can you tell from the post in 27 how to hook it up? You will need wire to replace the Pertronix wires and these new wires will connect to the relay at these places: purple will become #85, black 86, red 30, and orange 87. Does that make sense?
I'm not sure the wire gauge size because i don't know the power requirements of the Ignitor. Try to find wire that is the same size as that used on the Ignitor. Just a wild ass guess would say 18ga would work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
With the relay off- purple disconnected- you have somewhere between 34 and .2 ohms between red and orange wires??
If that is what you are saying, then the Pertronix relay is toast. Go to the auto parts store and buy a Bosch relay 12vdc coil, with common and normally open contacts- C and NO. Contacts 10A or greater should be fine. Can you tell from the post in 27 how to hook it up? You will need wire to replace the Pertronix wires and these new wires will connect to the relay at these places: purple will become #85, black 86, red 30, and orange 87. Does that make sense?
I'm not sure the wire gauge size because i don't know the power requirements of the Ignitor. Try to find wire that is the same size as that used on the Ignitor. Just a wild ass guess would say 18ga would work.
Not sure if I understand the first paragraph.
With everything removed no continuity between orange and red relay wires.
When I energize purple and black relay wires between battery. I hear the relay click then I see the ohmmeter hooked between orange relay wire and red relay wire , jump to 34 ohms then quicky drop to .2 ohms. This happens everytime I energize the relay at purple.

Looking at the relay can I just Material property Font Rectangle Gas Handwriting Circuit component Wood Electronic component Gas Font Wood Font Flooring Rectangle Parallel use the connector from Pertonix if terminals ate same orientation. (in photo ) from 12 Oclock clockwise, 85, 30, 86,87)
Material property Font Rectangle Gas Handwriting
Circuit component Wood Electronic component Gas Font
Wood Font Flooring Rectangle Parallel
 

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Just to make no mistake.... relay should be wired like so... It almost sounds like terminals 87 and 87a are reversed.
Rectangle Slope Parallel Font Number
 

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I'm not sure if the 34 to 0.2 ohm transition is your meter or something with the relay. The relay is supposed to be open with the power off and yours was. I would still try the Tyco- that one is supposed to be 30A which is plenty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
I will check the Petronix relay connector to make sure it was pinned correctly. I would not put it past them. Had to walk away for a it. I completely removed all wires and will start fresh and n the morning. Thanks both of you for all the asstance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 · (Edited)
I will check the Petronix relay connector to make sure it was pinned correctly. I would not put it past them. Had to walk away for a it. I completely removed all wires and will start fresh and n the morning. Thanks both of you for all the asstance.
12 oclock clockwise Red 87, Purple 85, orange 30, Black 86. Red and orange are swapped. They suck.

Electrical wiring Gas Circuit component Cable Electricity
 

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Orange and red go to the same normally open switch. Electrically it doesn't matter if they are reversed. On this type of relay it won't affect the operation. Its just an identification thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·

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Yes, as long as red and orange go to the switch they can be reversed. As long as purple and black go to the coil they can be reversed. Maybe this will help explain how a relay works:
Musical instrument Font Triangle Line Wood
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Orange and red go to the same normally open switch. Electrically it doesn't matter if they are reversed. On this type of relay it won't affect the operation. Its just an identification thing.
Rewired it this morning with a fresh mind...
Red relay wire (87) to Positive Battery side of the starter solenoid
Black Relay wire (86) to neg side of the starter solenoid
Purple relay wire (85) to "I" terminal with Brown wire.
Orange relay wire (30) to Red pertronix wire
Black pertronix to (-) coil
Green/red tach resistor wire to (+) coil
Red/Blue wire to "S" solenoid terminal
I have not replaced the relay with another one yet.

Vehicle only engages after the release of the key. Same as yesterday.

Removed relay from the circuit (purple wire and orange wire)
Placed Red pertonix wire under (+) coil terminal. under green/red tach wire.
Vehicle functions normally.

Good news, no arching at coil, definite carbon tracks on both sides of tower. . No visible cracks though.

Not sure what is next. Might just scrap the whole project, take it for a spin, see if miss was the coil arching.

Thanks again....
 

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It's your call; if you're tired of messing with it, then give up.
I do have a couple of questions:
1. What does this mean exactly? "Black Relay wire (86) to neg side of the starter solenoid"
2. In your picture there is a small gauge black wire that seems to be connected to the large rearmost terminal of the starter solenoid- what is that, and where does it go?

There are four possibilities 1) it is wired incorrectly 2) the ignition switch has a problem, 3) the starter solenoid has a problem, or 4) the Pertronix relay has a problem.
Since everything seems to return to normal if do this:
"Removed relay from the circuit (purple wire and orange wire)
Placed Red pertonix wire under (+) coil terminal. under green/red tach wire.
Vehicle functions normally"
I tend to think you have the wiring somehow crossed.

The mystery is why it only starts after the key is released. This would be possible if the relay contacts were closed with the relay off. Your tests don't seem to indicate that, but does the Tyco relay fit that socket you show? If you can just plug it in, we know it is a N.O. relay, and it may eliminate the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 · (Edited)
It's your call; if you're tired of messing with it, then give up.
I do have a couple of questions:
1. What does this mean exactly? "Black Relay wire (86) to neg side of the starter solenoid"
2. In your picture there is a small gauge black wire that seems to be connected to the large rearmost terminal of the starter solenoid- what is that, and where does it go?

There are four possibilities 1) it is wired incorrectly 2) the ignition switch has a problem, 3) the starter solenoid has a problem, or 4) the Pertronix relay has a problem.
Since everything seems to return to normal if do this:
"Removed relay from the circuit (purple wire and orange wire)
Placed Red pertonix wire under (+) coil terminal. under green/red tach wire.
Vehicle functions normally"
I tend to think you have the wiring somehow crossed.

The mystery is why it only starts after the key is released. This would be possible if the relay contacts were closed with the relay off. Your tests don't seem to indicate that, but does the Tyco relay fit that socket you show? If you can just plug it in, we know it is a N.O. relay, and it may eliminate the problem.
1. Ugh. I am guessing that is my issue. The small black wire is going to the relay ground (terminal 86). I am guessing the rear post on the solenoid is not the proper place at it is my starter terminal. Not ground.
Going to try a proper gound. I will let you know.

OK i'm an idiot.... Works great. I guess I will now have a full 12 volts at pertronix. I will take it out for a spin to see if my miss is gone, although I tend to think it was the coil all along although it bench tested fine (1.5 ohms primary, 10.5K secondary ohms. It is probably better to have a full 12 v at pertronix.
 

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Well, a couple things. First, check for power at the "I" terminal of the solenoid while cranking. Next, remove the coil wire from the distributor cap and ground it. Check for juice at the coil+ while cranking. If there is juice there it should start.

HOWEVER, remember that's a bypass for the coil resistance wire. if you have a coil that is arcing between the tower and primary windings the extra voltage could be killing the spark while cranking. I'd serious consider replacing the coil since you have the arcing issue ANYWAY.
 

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1. Ugh. I am guessing that is my issue. The small black wire is going to the relay ground (terminal 86). I am guessing the rear post on the solenoid is not the proper place at it is my starter terminal. Not ground.
Going to try a proper gound. I will let you know.
Yeah, that might do it.....
 

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Correct that is not a ground. Connect the relay black wire to the chassis. The starter solenoid attaches to the fender apron with two bolts at the top- put the ground wire under one of those bolts- that connects it to the chassis. All the sheet metal is grounded and that is a good enough ground for a little ol' relay coil.
 

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Great, glad you finally got it.
Works great. I guess I will now have a full 12 volts at pertronix. I will take it out for a spin to see if my miss is gone, although I tend to think it was the coil all along although it bench tested fine (1.5 ohms primary, 10.5K secondary ohms. It is probably better to have a full 12 v at pertronix.
Yes you should have 12v on the Ignitor and that should improve it's operation. Your miss was more than likely caused by the arcing- you can't bench test for that. It's a good thing you saw that in the dark. You have persevered, and probably learned a bit too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Thank you both again. Nice to be on the VMF again. It's been a while. I was on it all the time in the early 2000's. It always seems to get the job done.
 
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