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Discussion Starter #1
I recently decided to to swap to a PMGR style starter in my 1966 Coupe after having hot start issues. I read some reviews and and what i could find about these starters and found tons of info. I think there were some inexpensive late model options that would work, but wasn't sure and in the interest of time, i ordered a PA Performance model from CJ's. The starter showed up, install was a cinch. and when i turned the key, I hear the starter spin with no ring gear engagement. I boxed it up and shipped it back. (thank Goodness for PayPal return shipping reimbursement). I called PA Performance directly and got their recommendation on the model i need for my application. I order, the starter showed up, install was a cinch, and when i turned the key, I hear the starter spin with no ring gear engagement. Both times, the starter was wired according to the PA instructions.

My application is as follows:
1966 Mustang Coupe 289 w/ 4spd toploader - drivetrain is all stock, clutch, ringgear, etc.
Ford Factory Starter Part # - C30F-1131-A

#1 PA Performance Starter - Model 1806
https://www.paperformance.com/mini-pmgr-starter-1806/

#2 PA Performance Starter - Model 1881
https://www.paperformance.com/mini-pmgr-starter-1881/

Does anyone have a recommendation on which model I should use or what my issue is? I'm open to parts store models as well, if there is something there that will work. I'm in Phx, AZ if that matters.

Thanks in advance.
 

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I'm thinking it's not wired correctly. The reason, I state this, I run the same starter purchased from PA Performance and installed in '08. My block is a 289 (although a 5 bolt). My model is an 1806 and was correct for an auto tranny. However, when I later converted to a T5z, it still works. The 1881 is for a manual, as in your case a top loader, it should be correct too.
It appears you have power to the starter motor and not the Bendix drive and it's not engaging and that's a wiring connection issue. Therefore, re-visit your wiring schematic that came with the units and follow it carefully. Keep us posted with your findings so that others may learn from this.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
GT350H and kenash, thank you for your responses!

This is basically how i wired it. I moved my big thick starter cable to the positive side battery on solenoid and then moved the tiny one they supply to the starter side of solenoid. Looking at the link you posted, my starter is a perfect fit in the starter registry hole. I guess I need to take it apart again, count the teeth on the gear, and measure the depth.


 

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Holy thread revival Batman! An 11 year old thread revived today.


Here's the answer, plain and simple.
If you have a 157T flywheel or 157T flexplate you need the so called "automatic" starter with the long snout and exposed drive gear.
If you have a 164T flywheel or 164T flexplate you need the so called "manual" starter with the short snout and the recessed drive gear.



There used to be a diagram with the difference in the location of the ring gear between the 2 different tooth count flywheels/flexplates explained on a Bronco forum.


When is this website going to have "stickies" so we don't have to explain this every time the question comes up.


Here it is. I hope it shows up.
https://imgur.com/a/BurQ2
I think you might need the "long snout" starter for the 157T flywheel or 157T flexplate if the gear on the starter is not hitting or engaging the teeth on the flexplate/flywheel at all.

Note the starter snout length in this document: https://imgur.com/a/BurQ2

Also see: https://static.speedwaymotors.com/images/pdf/91067433.pdf
 

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This is basically how i wired it. I moved my big thick starter cable to the positive side battery on solenoid and then moved the tiny one they supply to the starter side of solenoid. Looking at the link you posted, my starter is a perfect fit in the starter registry hole. I guess I need to take it apart again, count the teeth on the gear, and measure the depth.
You definitely have it wired correctly because that's how I've got it in my 65 with a Toploader. I bought my starter from DB Electric, and haven't had any starter issues with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
You definitely have it wired correctly because that's how I've got it in my 65 with a Toploader. I bought my starter from DB Electric, and haven't had any starter issues with it.
Do you recall which model you bought from them?
 

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You need the 1806 for automatic. The reason is that the automatic starter is for both automatic and manual transmission using the smaller diameter 157 tooth flywheels. The other is for automatic and manual with 164 tooth flywheels.

Later on Ford got their act together and settled on the smaller 157 tooth starter design. I’m running a $30 97 V6 T5 164 tooth starter in my 66 with a 4 speed. I also have the PMGR starter that came with my GT40P and that fits as well
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I went out and took a bunch of measurements.

I have the 157T Flywheel where the ring gear is on the trans side
The original starter has 9 teeth where the PMGR has 10

The snout on the original is 2.25" long
The snout on the PMGR is 1.75" long

Please remember that I first purchased the auto version with the longer, identical length snout and that had the same behavior. I'm wondering if the drive gear is too small. A link to the proper replacement would be super helpful. I also may take the original to the parts store and compare to late model (92-95) mustang stuff as I really want the PMGR to work. I'm not sure why I'm having so much trouble with this, though my research shows that the starter that came out, C30F-11131-A is for an automatic, so maybe it really is this confusing.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You need the 1806 for automatic. The reason is that the automatic starter is for both automatic and manual transmission using the smaller diameter 157 tooth flywheels. The other is for automatic and manual with 164 tooth flywheels.

Later on Ford got their act together and settled on the smaller 157 tooth starter design. I’m running a $30 97 V6 T5 164 tooth starter in my 66 with a 4 speed. I also have the PMGR starter that came with my GT40P and that fits as well
If I go to the parts store with my original and ask for a 1997 V6 Mustang with 5 speed starter, I may be all set?
 

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If I go to the parts store with my original and ask for a 1997 V6 Mustang with 5 speed starter, I may be all set?
I agree, it appears you're wired correctly. I checked my against what you stated, as has others,
So, pull the starter and check the location of the ring gear, as was previously mentioned, if, you haven't already done so.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
So, pull the starter and check the location of the ring gear, as was previously mentioned, if, you haven't already done so.
I did exactly that. Ring gear is closest to the trans, consistent with the 157t flywheel.
 

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You need the 1806 for automatic. The reason is that the automatic starter is for both automatic and manual transmission using the smaller diameter 157 tooth flywheels. The other is for automatic and manual with 164 tooth flywheels.

Later on Ford got their act together and settled on the smaller 157 tooth starter design. I’m running a $30 97 V6 T5 164 tooth starter in my 66 with a 4 speed. I also have the PMGR starter that came with my GT40P and that fits as well
color me confused, What ring gear do you have ? I would have thought a 157?? Does the 97 v6 T-5 Mustang have a 164 flywheel ?
 

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I have the 157T Flywheel where the ring gear is on the trans side

You have a 157T flywheel with the ring gear on the transmission side of the flywheel. If the PMGR starter you bought is the one on the right in the photo you bought the wrong starter. That is the starter for a 164T flywheel which has the ring gear on the engine side of the flywheel.
 

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I followed the links and read what the OP posted, and it appears the first starter he ordered and received should have been the one to work. Don't understand why it didn't, unless the wrong starter was in the box.
 

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Before you put in the next one, compare the starter drive gear position to your original starter. If the drive gear is almost fully recessed, regardless of what the "snout" looks like, you have the wrong starter.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I really appreciate everyone's responses. I've been an auto enthusiast my whole life and always relied on the bulletin boards for help, even back in the days of dial-up. This group is awesome!

I plan to call PA on Monday morning with all the info I've gained here and see what they say. There's got to be a bone stock 66 289 4spd that has used one of these starters successfully.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I followed the links and read what the OP posted, and it appears the first starter he ordered and received should have been the one to work. Don't understand why it didn't, unless the wrong starter was in the box.
Agreed. It came from CJ's and is the only one they sell. There were no markings or part numbers anywhere I could find on the starter, only the box. PA said, if 1806 didn't work, then it has to be 1881. No dice.
 

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I went out and took a bunch of measurements.

I have the 157T Flywheel where the ring gear is on the trans side
The original starter has 9 teeth where the PMGR has 10

The snout on the original is 2.25" long
The snout on the PMGR is 1.75" long

Please remember that I first purchased the auto version with the longer, identical length snout and that had the same behavior. I'm wondering if the drive gear is too small. A link to the proper replacement would be super helpful. I also may take the original to the parts store and compare to late model (92-95) mustang stuff as I really want the PMGR to work. I'm not sure why I'm having so much trouble with this, though my research shows that the starter that came out, C30F-11131-A is for an automatic, so maybe it really is this confusing.
If the starter on the left is the original, the one on the right isn't going to spin the engine.
(i.e.: even with the starter gear all the way extended, it won't connect with the flywheel
gear- which is pretty clear in the photo)
The other PMGR starter you had originally was probably not working correctly. You can
check them off the vehicle to make sure the Bendix is sliding all the way out to the end
of the nose....
 
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