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Discussion Starter #1
As this current discussion demonstrates, there is some degree of dissatisfaction with the inherent physics of the curved Monte Carlo Bars:

http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/820682-export-braces-2.html


This is pretty interesting to me, as I'm currently producing, for sale, a couple of prototype STRAIGHT Monte Carlo Bars that will fit engines that have the oval Cobra air cleaners, aftermarket distributors, and in my case, Weber carburetors.

It utilizes the same mounting points of the typical Monte Carlo Bar. No Heim joints, curves, or other trickery. Just a plain, straight welded bar that utilizes a more complex side bracket, moving the bar forward slightly , just enough to clear.

These will have a heavier tube wall thickness than the current offering of Monte Carlo Bars, and thicker end plates as well.

100% USA steel and 100% USA labor.

Stay posted for photos. I should have some with a prototype STRAIGHT Monte Carlo Bar installed in my '65 K code in a week or so.. It will be available on eBay or if purchased direct from me, forum members will receive a discount.

Z.
 

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i don't see any quantitative data in that other thread to show that a curved bar is bad. maybe I just missed it.

it's too bad someone can't actually devise a method and make measurements (e.g. the amount of flex occurred going around a particular curve at x mph using no bar, a curved bar and a straight bar along with the other details of that car).
 

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i don't see any quantitative data in that other thread to show that a curved bar is bad. maybe I just missed it.

it's too bad someone can't actually devise a method and make measurements (e.g. the amount of flex occurred going around a particular curve at x mph using no bar, a curved bar and a straight bar along with the other details of that car).
+1

Exactly
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Will this work with an oval air cleaner and factory a/c compressor?
It will clear the air cleaner. I will PM you some questions about the A/C compressor

i don't see any quantitative data in that other thread to show that a curved bar is bad. maybe I just missed it...." .
I don't know that the other thread is filled with quantitative data. What it does have, is exactly what I described; "...some dissatisfaction with the curved Monte Carlo Bar..." .

Z
 

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I don't know that the other thread is filled with quantitative data. What it does have, is exactly what I described; "...some dissatisfaction with the curved Monte Carlo Bar..." .

Z
and that dissatisfaction doesn't appear to based on anything that was actually measured and instead based more on feeling. forums are great for doing that.

I do wish you well with marketing and selling your product though. the more options, the merrier.
 

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I don't think it's a "feeling" that such a bar with such a curve in it turns into a spring under tension and compression forces. (Any structural engineers feel free to chime in here.)
Given that the only purpose of the straight bar is to resist those particular forces, the curved bar is merely decoration.
No real need for math and physics professors, we can demonstrate the problem to ourselves easily. Our main concern is compression, as we don't want our shock towers collapsing in as they are prone to do. Right? Take a shortish length of small straight tubing. Like brake line, if you have some perfectly straight around. (Parts stores do.) Try to compress this length, attacking it square on. Without going at it from an angle you'll have to put in a vice to do so while pressing it squarely. Take a slightly longer piece and put a bend in it. No need to duplicate the Monte Carlo bar shape, just any sort of bend in the middle that leaves the ends straight. You no longer need a vice to compress the line by applying force perpendicularly, any small child you have handy can now do it.
I don't know how to make it any more clear.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
and that dissatisfaction doesn't appear to based on anything that was actually measured and instead based more on feeling. forums are great for doing that.

I do wish you well with marketing and selling your product though. the more options, the merrier.
Thanks for the well wishes.

Yes, 99% of the modifications done by forum members who "felt" some dissatisfaction, and moved toward another direction. Practically no one here is modifying there car based on lap times or dyno results. Certainly those types of empirical tests are the gold standard, and it would be nice if everyone could have access to the kind of quantitative data that a track or dyno provides.

Clearly, the straight Monte Carlo Bar is going to have a different response than a curved bar. Whether that makes a curved bar unacceptable is a matter of personal choice. As you say, it's just another option. One that currently doesn't exist.

Z
 

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I don't think it's a "feeling" that such a bar with such a curve in it turns into a spring under tension and compression forces. (Any structural engineers feel free to chime in here.)
Given that the only purpose of the straight bar is to resist those particular forces, the curved bar is merely decoration.
No real need for math and physics professors, we can demonstrate the problem to ourselves easily. Our main concern is compression, as we don't want our shock towers collapsing in as they are prone to do. Right? Take a shortish length of small straight tubing. Like brake line, if you have some perfectly straight around. (Parts stores do.) Try to compress this length, attacking it square on. Without going at it from an angle you'll have to put in a vice to do so while pressing it squarely. Take a slightly longer piece and put a bend in it. No need to duplicate the Monte Carlo bar shape, just any sort of bend in the middle that leaves the ends straight. You no longer need a vice to compress the line by applying force perpendicularly, any small child you have handy can now do it.
I don't know how to make it any more clear.
I won't argue that in the line of the straight bar that it is stiffer than a curved bar. A 6 year old should be able to understand that.

the question should be, how much weaker is the curved bar as it's used in this application? for example if adding a straight bar reduces the side to side compression or extension by 0.25" and a curved bar reduces it by 0.245", then does it matter?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I won't argue that in the line of the straight bar that it is stiffer than a curved bar. A 6 year old should be able to understand that.

the question should be, how much weaker is the curved bar as it's used in this application? for example if adding a straight bar reduces the side to side compression or extension by 0.25" and a curved bar reduces it by 0.245", then does it matter?
Did you read post #13 on the other thread referenced above ?
It was pretty interesting:
Quoted here:
".......
I did my own test on a mustang that had shock towers sagging in a bit from age. I jacked the towers apart until I could get the curved monte carlo bar in and it bent rather than hold the towers from going back in. I then put a straight bar in and it held it. Of course later the towers were jacked out further and allowed to relax to the correct length but I just wanted to test the strength of the two types of bars.

There is no question that the straight bar is stronger. Do you need that much strength though, I certainly don't know.
Both my cars use a straight bar and it sucks that they are close to the distributor but I know it is as stiff as I can get it.
__________________
65 coupe, M-6007-X302 crate engine,
headers, 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust
C4 transmission, custom ATI 10" converter
3.00 Auburn 8" rear end,
Arning drop
.........."
 

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Did you read post #13 on the other thread referenced above ?
It was pretty interesting:
Quoted here:
".......
I did my own test on a mustang that had shock towers sagging in a bit from age. I jacked the towers apart until I could get the curved monte carlo bar in and it bent rather than hold the towers from going back in. I then put a straight bar in and it held it. Of course later the towers were jacked out further and allowed to relax to the correct length but I just wanted to test the strength of the two types of bars.

There is no question that the straight bar is stronger. Do you need that much strength though, I certainly don't know.
Both my cars use a straight bar and it sucks that they are close to the distributor but I know it is as stiff as I can get it.
__________________
65 coupe, M-6007-X302 crate engine,
headers, 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust
C4 transmission, custom ATI 10" converter
3.00 Auburn 8" rear end,
Arning drop
.........."

that example might be a step in the right direction. it sure would have been interesting to hear how far it bent, did it bend all the way back, 5%, 50%?

perhaps someone will make actual measurements sometime and post them.

or you could make some measurements and post that test data with your adds. separate yourself from the rest.
 

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I've got one of these to keep my *** from hitting the ground. Hasn't collapsed under my weight yet. It's a simple matter of engineering.... estimating the maximum force generated pushing the two aprons together, adding a safety margin, and creating a bar that has the structural properties to resist that force, whether it be straight, or bent. If the bent one does the job then it works. If not, it's going to kink along the bend. Haven't seen one kinked yet....

 

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Discussion Starter #14
".....or you could make some measurements and post that test data with your adds. separate yourself from the rest.
If I have access to a car with "springy" shock towers , I certainly will.

I do hope I've separated myself a bit from the crowd already with the crossmembers I'm making. I don't know of many, if anyone, who are selling the more cheaply made Competeition Crossmember that really care if it fits right, or works for that matter. All I got when I bought one of those was, " .....you're the first one that ever complained it didn't fit..."

Ha ha . That's the fist lie they teach you when selling aftermarket vintsge parts. I've sold about 50 crossmembers since starting in May. Not one of my customers can say I didn't go all the way to make sure they were satisfied, regardless how much it cost me a profit. I'm already retired, and doing this type thing for for my own pleasure and as a service to the vintsge Mustang community. So far it's been a blast.

Z.
 

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Wouldn't the best benefit for shock tower support be have both....The curved and the monte carlo bar.. Would you still be able to use your curved support with the monte carlo bar your building? Probably wouldn't take much (for the consumer themselves) to make both work together even if one or the other had to be modified a little....:)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I've got one of these to keep my *** from hitting the ground. Hasn't collapsed under my weight yet. It's a simple matter of engineering.... estimating the maximum force generated pushing the two aprons together, adding a safety margin, and creating a bar that has the structural properties to resist that force, whether it be straight, or bent. If the bent one does the job then it works. If not, it's going to kink along the bend. Haven't seen one kinked yet....
Ha ha . Sorry Bartl, no sell. Your cane is going to flex quite a bit if it's made from steel tubing like the curved Monte Carlo Bars are, before it "kinks" if ever.

I know you can throw better money wrenches than this, c'mon, you aren't even trying ! You must still be under the influence of the Thanksgiving dinner.

Z
 

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Ha ha . Sorry Bartl, no sell. Your cane is going to flex quite a bit if it's made from steel tubing like the curved Monte Carlo Bars are, before it "kinks" if ever.

I know you can throw better money wrenches than this, c'mon, you aren't even trying ! You must still be under the influence of the Thanksgiving dinner.

Z
Nope. It's thinwall aluminum, just like the frame on cheap outdoor furniture. That stuff either kinks and collapses or quickly stress cracks. There's a LOT of stuff on cars that are curved and work just fine. The lower engine crossmember is a prime example.
 
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