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In one of those phases right now where it seems like nothing goes together like I expect, no matter how much research and planning I do. I was mocking up my water pump (Edelbrock 8842) on my car today and am having an impossible time understanding the bolts. I ordered the AMK kit for a '65 289 w/ alternator and AC from NPD, which comes with a diagram. OK, easy enough...not so much. The bottom left bolt (facing the engine) stops about 1" from the pump. The timing cover is a brand new Drake version, early style for aluminum pump w/ no backing plate. All holes were cleaned with a thread chaser before I put the timing cover on, so I'm pretty sure there's no issue there (plus the bolt goes in like butter until it stops). Can anyone help me understand what I'm doing wrong? I tried to search for a diagram or someone else with the same problem and came up empty. I don't think it's an issue with the Edelbrock, as it appears dimensionally the same as the old pump it's replacing. It's the bolts that I don't understand. Thanks so much for the help - this was a big frustration for me tonight after I was hoping for an easy project after wrestling with my carb rebuild.
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On the Go Fast, I had to buy two different AMK kits to have what I needed. @patrickstapler can probably give you the two part numbers for the kits but I don't have them handy (he had to do it and warned me and he was correct).

Allen

EDIT: ARP-154-1504 and ARP-154-3202. I had to research but these are the two kits I had to get...and sorry, mine were ARP not AMK kits.
 

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I bought stainless steel bolts at the local hardware store that matched the lengths of the originals (which I brought along with me). I had to grind one or two of the longer ones.
The dealers sell the kit that's supposed to work for 289, 302, and 351W. I opted for stainless steel because they don't rust. I also used anti seize instead of silicone when I installed the pump and cover. That was 2015. No leaks, no issues to this day.
Wondering if the E-brock pump might need a different bolt for that hole.
Let me look at my pics.
 

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The water pump bolts are a pain. I ordered a kit from ARP (which are usually great), but I could only use half of the bolts. Since it also depends on the accessory brackets I got a bunch of grad 5 bolts and tried to match with the old bolts. Now I have a mixture between black ARP bolts and steel bolts. But at least no leaks so far. Do you still have your old bolts and a picture where you can see which bolt goes where?
 

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Pic shows how the brackets attach, so you don't want to torque that one down yet anyway.
I'd pull the bolt out, stuff an awl into the hole and measure how deep it is and grind the bolt down then thread it more if you still can't get it to tighten as much as it should.
Did you match the bolts in the kit to the ones you took out? Lots of tales here where these snap when trying to remove them. It's possible there's the end of one left in the block.
 

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Where are the bolts you took out of the water pump in the first place? It appears you have 2 different hardness bolts in your pump now. Just match up bolts that fit the pump unless you have other brackets that need to be attached ahead of the pump. If you go ahead and do the final bolt-on of the pump then find you need a longer bolt somewhere for a bracket, just remove that bolt and find one the right length. The original bolts, where ever they are, should be fine for a mock-up.
 

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Easy to figure.... dial calipers have this neat depth gauge that you stick down the hole and read the distance, then you pick a bolt a bit shorter......
 

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Discussion Starter #9
You guys are all awesome - I really appreciate the help. It sounds like I overthought it when I assumed I "had" to use the kit in order for it to work correctly. I've heard the horror stories of broken bolts, but I don't remember there being any surprises when removing the last water pump. In all honesty, the last setup on this engine was so mismatched that I didn't figure the water pump bolts to be of any value, hence why I bought what was described as a "correct" kit. Of course I've kept just about every other part/bolt except these (I do have the old pump, which looks pretty much identical dimensionally to the Edelbrock). I've used ARP almost everywhere else on this engine, but will probably just make a hardware store run on the water pump since it might require some finagling anyway. Would hate to drop all that money on 2 ARP kits and still not have it right.

Appreciate all the help (especially the pictures) and I'll update when I get it all installed.
 

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Easy to figure.... dial calipers have this neat depth gauge that you stick down the hole and read the distance, then you pick a bolt a bit shorter......
Although I can agree with this to a certain extent, it's not what the OP was after. They tried to buy a kit so they could bolt there water pump on. You can buy an upholstery kit for your '65 Mustang without using dial calipers to measure the depth of, or thickness of, the seat. They bought a kit that should do the job and it doesn't.

I've been there and understand.

Allen
 

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On my repop timing cover from cal pony cars all four bottom bolt are to long. When I looked both covers the bosses on the new one are shorter so I just bought shorter bolts. Is the boss on that water pump different there?
 

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Um, I have a basic clarifying question- Is that new water pump the type with or without the backing plate?
 

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Um, I have a basic clarifying question- Is that new water pump the type with or without the backing plate?
That is a very fair question to ask. It’s an Edelbrock 8842 - they list it as for the HiPo, but it’s for all 289s without a backing plate. The cover is a Drake repro for an aluminum pump with no plate. Do you see anything that indicates otherwise? I can post pics later today of the back of the pump.
 

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I double checked my stash, and sure enough I did keep the old pump bolts. Nice to know I’m not crazy - the longest bolt from the set that was on there is a good 3/4 inch shorter than the new one in the kit. Seems to verify that the best plan of attack is just piece together the right size bolts on my own or use the 2 ARP kits. I was able to get my alternator mocked up today, and the original bolt fit perfectly with the bracket and washers.
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That is a very fair question to ask. It’s an Edelbrock 8842 - they list it as for the HiPo, but it’s for all 289s without a backing plate. The cover is a Drake repro for an aluminum pump with no plate. Do you see anything that indicates otherwise? I can post pics later today of the back of the pump.
Photos would be nice, especially if side-by-side showing the thickness of the bolt bosses. I'm guessing Edelbrock was careless with that.

They are a little careless with the description. The no-back-plate type was before Change Level 7, and is true of HP and regular engines. The unique feature of the HP pump was the impeller, designed to reduce cavitation at high rpm. Edelbrock describes it as a 65-67 pump. No way. Pre-CL 7 engines were long gone before the 1966 model year.

For Ford engines 65-69 after Change Level 7, you need Edelbrock pump 8841.

Usually people differentiate the two by referring to them as "aluminum pump" (early 65) and "iron pump" (late 65-69).

Note- The dates I refer to are for Mustangs. Naturally, the aluminum pump was used by Ford on other cars in 63-64.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Photos would be nice, especially if side-by-side showing the thickness of the bolt bosses. I'm guessing Edelbrock was careless with that.

They are a little careless with the description. The no-back-plate type was before Change Level 7, and is true of HP and regular engines. The unique feature of the HP pump was the impeller, designed to reduce cavitation at high rpm. Edelbrock describes it as a 65-67 pump. No way. Pre-CL 7 engines were long gone before the 1966 model year.

For Ford engines 65-69 after Change Level 7, you need Edelbrock pump 8841.

Usually people differentiate the two by referring to them as "aluminum pump" (early 65) and "iron pump" (late 65-69).

Note- The dates I refer to are for Mustangs. Naturally, the aluminum pump was used by Ford on other cars in 63-64.
Don’t disagree with any of your points. I just know it’s the right pump for an aluminum/no backing plate car. Same with the cover.

Both should be correct for my car (built September ‘64), based on all my research. I will upload pics of old and new pump/cover tonight.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Photos would be nice, especially if side-by-side showing the thickness of the bolt bosses. I'm guessing Edelbrock was careless with that.

They are a little careless with the description. The no-back-plate type was before Change Level 7, and is true of HP and regular engines. The unique feature of the HP pump was the impeller, designed to reduce cavitation at high rpm. Edelbrock describes it as a 65-67 pump. No way. Pre-CL 7 engines were long gone before the 1966 model year.

For Ford engines 65-69 after Change Level 7, you need Edelbrock pump 8841.

Usually people differentiate the two by referring to them as "aluminum pump" (early 65) and "iron pump" (late 65-69).

Note- The dates I refer to are for Mustangs. Naturally, the aluminum pump was used by Ford on other cars in 63-64.
Pics, as requested. Both pumps appear to be the "early" style to my eye and match the cover. I can't find any markings on the old pump except "P-420", but I'm sure it was a cheap NAPA option when the motor was built in the early 2000s. The boss for the bolt in question measures 1 3/4" on the Edelbrock and 1 13/16" on the old pump, so pretty close.

P.S. - also discovered a problem with my new balancer today when trying to put the pulleys on, which you can see in the last pic. The groove for the pulley to sit in was never machined into the balancer.

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When I worked at Canton Racing in the late 90's, we wanted to offer a true race-quality pulley and bracket setup for 289/302/351W engines. I already knew that the Ford front dress was a complicated mess, so I talked to then head of Ford Motorsport - John Vermeersch. He chuckled and said as of us speaking, Ford had 147 different front dress setups, subject to change at a moments notice as they were then putting the GT-40P engine in the Explorer/Mountaineer. I did get the job done, but the combination of parts it would fit was fairly specific and we included a bunch of shims and spacers to make it "fit" other combinations. When you throw in aftermarket water pumps, balancers and timing covers, you are going to have to make some adjustments.

Regarding ARP, they offer a few Ford bolt kits. Buy the one that seems closest to your application and figure out exactly what works and what doesn't. I built several engines with their front dress bolt kits and then contacted them about the ones that I needed. Every time they sent out exactly what I needed at no charge. Sit down with the engine and set of calipers, make a list and give them the length and thread sizes you need.
 
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