Looks good, i plan to do the same with mine when i add headrests. Opinions from others, is that a high enough mounting point for safety?

 

do you have pictures from the side, or better yet where and how you mounted the seatbelts in the front and rear?

thanks

eric

 

Looks nice.

The shoulder mount looks a little low though. Looks as though it would go under your arm instead of over your shoulder and across your chest.

Almost looks to me like if you wore it over your shoulder you'd have some nasty compressions/twisting injuries if you were ever in a head on crash. If you wore it under your arm (like I've seen people even in modern cars do) looks like you'd break ribs and possibly have nasty internal injuries.

How you could mount it higher in a coupe and still keep the belt short, I have no idea.

 

I know what you're saying about the shoulder point looking low, but I have to say that after strapping into it, it’s quite comfortable. Because of the angle, it comes directly over the shoulder between the neck and outer part of the arm. The fit is snug, secure, and comfortable. I don't think that the location of the shoulder point would cause any additional damage to the body in a vehicle crash other that what you would normally sustain from the crash. Also, I don’t see how you could mount it higher without major body work (i.e. welding the bolt into the roof line) and I believe if you mounted it higher, the integrity would be compromised.

Eric, I'll try to snap some additional pictures a little later for ya.

Brian

 

Looks good, i plan to do the same with mine when i add headrests. Opinions from others, is that a high enough mounting point for safety?

No. Double triple hell no. Read the SFI and other safety sheets out there, that angle is just begging for injuries. I'd rather have a correct lapbelt system than a POS 3 point belt system any day, chances are I'd avoid a compressed spine that way.

 

Alright. First, here are the instructions that came with the seatbelts in the box.
Instructions

Here are some extra pics I snapped (Sorry for them being out of focus). FYI, I had to drill two holes in the installation process:
1)To bolt the retractor to the floor
2)To install the shoulder point

The shoulder point from the door jam (You can rivet it to the door, I just haven't yet)

The shoulder point from the inside minus the cover

The retractor in the floor of the rear seat. Bolted through floor with large washer on bottom of car

Used the original lap belt points for the the buckle end and the third anchor point

Here how the seatbelt looks on from the front and side. Thanks to the wife for letting me use her as a "model."

 

Looks good, i plan to do the same with mine when i add headrests. Opinions from others, is that a high enough mounting point for safety?

No. Double triple hell no. Read the SFI and other safety sheets out there, that angle is just begging for injuries. I'd rather have a correct lapbelt system than a POS 3 point belt system any day, chances are I'd avoid a compressed spine that way.

Obviously I have installed a POS 3 point system and take full responsibility for my own actions.

 

Havok1,
I've got a set of 3pts for my coupe that I've been wanting to install for several months... but I wasn't sure how to do it. This post has answered some of my questions (mine came with the same distinct lack of instructions). When I'm slightly less tired and a wee bit more coherent, I'd like to pick your brain about your installation.

Nearly every 3pt belt thread I've read here ends up in a nasty debate on the angle of the shoulder belt. The belt angle depicted in the OP may be "just begging for injuries," but so is doing a face plant into the steering wheel. I've yet to see a 3pt install that made every NaderSayer happy.

 

First off, call me Brian. I'd be happy to help you out in any way I can. I'm in the Raleigh area and if your close by I'll even give you a hand. PT me.

As for the "debates" of 3 point systems, I just can't help posting smart a** comments. }:|

 

Nice Job Brian. Would love to see it in person!

 

why didn't you go for the shelby type shoulder belts? no question about the belt angle being unsafe, no weird holes in your panels, and a cool roll bar to boot!

 

You should never mount your seatbelts that low. Your just asking for trouble!
You should also never drive your mustang. That thing is a deathtrap! Also, no smoking, drinking, guns, or trans fats!
Seriously, is it really better to have just a lap belt than a three point mounted below the shoulder? I'd rather risk a compressed spine than being speared thru the chest.
Does anyone have these safety sheets?
I thought it was a pretty clean install... You should invest in some better seats though if you plan on driving it much...

 

Well some people thing the way I did my 3 points in my fastback don't have enough meat to them or might rip through the sheetmetal structure of the roof, but, sure beats hitting the steering wheel.. Hell, it might be better.. Slow me down instead of breaking my collar/spine..

 

Seriously, is it really better to have just a lap belt than a three point mounted below the shoulder? I'd rather risk a compressed spine than being speared thru the chest.

Why pick between two bad alternatives?

First off, Brian, thanks for posting pics of your install - there are very few willing to show how the install looks when someone is sitting with the belts buckled.

That said, IMO, the shoulder belt pivot is too low, the second picture from the side shows that while slack it is already below the 5 degree angle recommended by the sanctioning body, SFI Foundation, that sets safety specs for NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, etc. and that are followed by Simpson, Schroth, etc. When pulled taut under load (as in a collision) it will follow the attachment points to a lower angle, putting dangerous pressure on the shoulder and spine.

Also, the female end of the lap belt portion is too long - when buckled its length positions it well into the soft tissue of the stomach, it should be shorter to keep the belt low and as close to the hips as possible.

Does anyone have these safety sheets?

Jennifer F. Bowden, SFI Foundation, Seat Belts: Essential to Driver Safety:
"The attachment points must provide the optimum geometry to minimize movement of the belts. Lap belts perform best when they act at an angle between 45° and 55° relative to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle as illustrated in part A of the Figure.
http://www.sfifoundation.com/seatbelt.gif
This angle permits the lap belt to react to the upward pull of the shoulder harness. A system installed with a shallow belt angle, as shown in part B of the Figure, permits the shoulder harness to pull the lap belt up off the pelvic area and into the abdominal region with the likelihood of injury to internal organs.

The end attachments of the shoulder harness must also be installed at appropriate angles. The ideal position is anywhere between 5° below and 30° above the driver's shoulder, as seen in part C of the Figure.

If the upper attachment point falls significantly below the driver's shoulder, then a spinal compression injury is likely to occur. In an accident situation, the shoulder belts pull down and back on the torso as they resist the forward motion of the driver. The resultant restraint force compresses the spinal column and will add to the stresses in the spine already caused by the force of the crash impact."

See also, section 9.3.18. DRIVER’S RESTRAINT SYSTEM of the SCCA's General Competition Rules;
ARTICLE 6 : SAFETY BELTS, of the FIA WORLD TOURING CAR CHAMPIONSHIP 2007 Regulations;
the technical papers and instructions published by Schroth and Simpson, and, last but not least:
Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations: Transportation
PART 571—FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS

§ 571.209 Standard No. 209; Seat belt assemblies.
§ 571.210 Standard No. 210; Seat belt assembly anchorages.

 

How you could mount it higher in a coupe and still keep the belt short, I have no idea.

I think Canted Valve's thread where the idea of a harness mounting bar similar to the
Brey-Krause R-1120 C6 harness mount bar provides some good starting points. That would entail fabrication but no less to the interior than the install here.

Also, I think the spring steel sash extensions used in the Ford Econoline van's could be worth trying in a coupe or FB,
mounted from the stock attachment point in the ceiling, to position the shoulder sash correctly and keep the belt relatively short.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1222/1352091181_0217fe0c1e.jpg
But I dont' have a hardtop, so you all will have to run with that one

 

Hey, I think those units from the Econoline would be great. What years did these come in?
From your pics it looks as if this is what you are using on your vert. Did you use the complete van seatbelt setup or just the upper "extensions"?
David

 

1992 to 1996 - the right (passenger) side. In the set as installed in my car we used a complete set (retractor, webbing, sash extension, tongue/buckle) from a salvage yard van. Since the webbing is an unknown but certain risk, I have since sourced and bought the part new from Ford. Just have to install the OEM parts this autumn, along with ironing out some further details on fit/finish.*

Mounting it from the ceiling in a hardtop might not be aesthetically perfect but I believe would be very functional and within or closer to the safety bodies' specifications. A less conspicuous but as functional install would be more like mine, mounting the sash extension/guide at the C-pillar. This would of course involve more fabrication and messing with the interior. (Note that the OEM sash extension is spring steel covered in vinyl and the correct length to place and hold the sash belt immediately behind the shoulder).

I do believe it can be done well in a restomod and be made to look OEM.

*In the best scenario, one would use only the sash extension/guide with another retractor/webbing set but that requires cutting and resewing the webbing - a whole other set of requirements and problems. No U.S. seat belt provider will do this type of work for liability reasons. I found one place in England that will do it (not cheaply) and there are perhaps other places that would do the sewing (upholstery shops, for example). YMMV.

 

Well folks, I'm learning quickly that I obviously don't need to post topics here. In the last two I have posted I have started "debates/arguements" over what I've posted. Unfortunately I'm a slow learner (or special as my Mama always said) so I'll probably just keep doing it. Just let me take a moment to say a few last thoughts on this topic if I could. Actually you can't stop me, so here goes.

I picked these belts for several reasons:

1. The car had no belts. I'm no math genius, but when it comes to seatbelts, I came up with Some > None.

2. The car's interior was dark red/maroon, I'm keeping it dark red/maroon, and the belts were dark red/maroon.

3. I wanted chrome buckles. These had chrome buckles.

4. I was not planning on blasting off to the moon, competeing in/winning the Nextel Cup race Saturday night in Charlotte, or flying the car over to Europe to take on the Autobon in my 6 cyl. mustang that probably currently produces an astounding 75 hp and spends 98% of its time in my garage. Therefore I did not see the point of installing a roll bar, 5-point harness, or a Gatorade drinking system in the car. (That last ones a NASCAR thing if you didn't get it.)

5. I consulted the people whose opinion mattered most (My wife and me). We agreed. Well, I said honey I'd like to get these belts and she said OK and gave me the money. (That's generally how things work in my house.)

6. I start my work day by putting on a "bullet proof" vest and strapping on a sidearm with 25 rounds at my disposal. Does this make me Superman? No, hence the whole "bullet proof" vest part. I understand the need for safety a little better than the next Joe, but also understand that I'm just trying to make the car a little safer than it was when I started. I don't know as I've ever been to a wreck where someone involved said, "Man those have got to be the most comfortable seat belts I've ever been strapped in with during a crash!" I know if I'm in a head on crash in my mustang, I won't have to worry about getting hurt (cause my wife will kill me).

All in all, thanks for all the opinions on my POS 3 point system. Especially thanks for the positive encouragement 'cause that's why I really started this topic. For those that were interested in taking your life into your own hands and want more information about the install, I'm certainly glad to help and if you're close by I'll even lend a hand no charge. You just have to sign a liability waiver. It no big deal. Really.

Safe Driving,
Brian

 

Hey, if it wasn't a forum (as in VMF) there would be no debates or arguments. If you only wanted compliments you should have said so in the first post.
We're all here to share information and help the next guy confronting the same challenges.
I applaud your post and information and hope that it and the constructive criticism helps those who read this after we're done.

 

Looks good, i plan to do the same with mine when i add headrests. Opinions from others, is that a high enough mounting point for safety?

No. Double triple hell no. Read the SFI and other safety sheets out there, that angle is just begging for injuries. I'd rather have a correct lapbelt system than a POS 3 point belt system any day, chances are I'd avoid a compressed spine that way.

Wow, I guess you've never seen a human body impaled on that impromptu lance of a steering column. (Yes, back in the 70s, I saw several pics of just such accidents, and unfortunately saw one in person.)
Your comments obviously have merit, but given the choice, I think I'd rather have some spinal compression than a 6 inch wide metal shaft through my chest.
P.S. I'm also sending you a certificate for one free Dale Carnegie course...

 

The shoulder point from the door jam (You can rivet it to the door, I just haven't yet)

That mounting plate is the trick I need to get my belts in... gotta find a pair of those.

The stuff that Ken_in_MD quotes makes logical sense... but I went to the page he quoted from and the first sentence begins thus: "The primary goal of any race car driver..."

I dunno about anyone else but I consider "racing" to be considerably more hazardous than driving to work or the grocery store... and would therefore require a much different approach to safety upgrades. But seriously folks, I'm driving an inline six... only with luck and a tailwind can I beat a well-ridden 10 speed in the quarter mile.

For me it's about making reasonable, cost-effective safety upgrades to my car. I don't have the skills/equipment to do major fabrication/modification... nor do I have the $$ to pay someone else to do it for me. Putting the third point in the door frame may not be optimal... but neither is driving a 40+ year old car. If safety were our primary goal, we'd all be driving Volvos or Land Cruisers.

 

Many thanks for posting all of the pics, especially with someone actually strapped in.

Ya, maybe the shoulder mounting point is a little low, but I also think the shoulder mounting point in my '95 vert is a little low. Perhaps you could add something to the seat (at or beside the head rest) to feed the belt through. My vert has that and would take the pressure of the seatbelt in the event of an accident (keeping the pressure point at or above the shoulder).

It would probably require a little fabrication, but something to consider. If you want, I can supply pics from the vert to give you an idea what the shoulder bracket looks like.

MustangChuck

PS: Thanks for your service in law enforcement. It is often an unsung and under appreciated job.

 

Hey, if it wasn't a forum (as in VMF) there would be no debates or arguments. If you only wanted compliments you should have said so in the first post.
We're all here to share information and help the next guy confronting the same challenges.
I applaud your post and information and hope that it and the constructive criticism helps those who read this after we're done.

I completely agree Ken. This is a forum and that's why I love it! Pretty much everything I put in my last post was just smart a** comments, but its hard to fully appreciate them when they are typed out instead of delivered in person. As I said, I take all opinions as such and appreciate them all, even if I don't agree with them. Thanks for all the safety information that you put in here for everyone. Its good stuff. Different strokes for different folks though. Please don't take anything I say to heart 'cause I'm not that kinda guy. I'm just happy to have a mustang that I can work on.

Chuck. If you wouldn't mind posting some pics of that setup in your vert here, I'd appreciate it and it might give someone else another option to consider too. The sharing of information is why we're here any way.

Brian

 

I completely agree Ken. This is a forum and that's why I love it! Pretty much everything I put in my last post was just smart a** comments, but its hard to fully appreciate them when they are typed out instead of delivered in person. ...

It's all good :thumbup: we need more emoticons

Chuck, re. the 95 vert shoulder belt angle: I think they are too low as well (though they probably meet FMVSS specs). -photo- That plastic bracket that holds the belt on the seat is held in by two philips screws, isn't it? that would not correct the geometry flaws inherent to mounting the pivot at the top of the door jamb. The belt in a collision will draw taut between it's attachment points under forces in the thousands of pounds.

For me it's about making reasonable, cost-effective safety upgrades to my car.

That's exactly true. The engineering and physics that goes into the both the racing body specs and FMVSS provide the best starting point, IMO. Just because they were developed for the track and modern production cars doesn't invalidate them as a reference for street use of vintage Mustangs. Since these cars, as you point out, are inherently less safe than new ones, it makes sense to take reasonable steps to compensate. In this category I would also include such upgrades as radial tires, brighter brake lights, dual master brake cylinders, etc.

FWIW, the total cost of the setup using the Econoline kit comes out per seat to about $200 in parts, probably two hours labor, and LESS cutting up of the car than the door-jamb kits require. And it comes closer to the specs than anything else I've seen.

BTW, don't 66 coupes have the upper pivot anchorage point already mounted in the ceiling under the headliner?

 

Chuck, re. the 95 vert shoulder belt angle: I think they are too low as well (though they probably meet FMVSS specs). That plastic bracket that holds the belt on the seat is held in by two philips screws, isn't it?

They'd had to meet someone's (1995) safety specs, otherwise Ford couldn't have sold them.

Ya, two screws to the outside of the headrest. And, ya, its only plastic. I figured that it would hold the belt in place and the seat would take the brunt of the force. Who knows. Thank God I've never needed to find out. And, ya, I expect to probably break my collar bone should I ever need it. (Beats a face plant in either the rapidly exploding airbag or the front windshield.)

I'll try to post pics tomorrow or Friday.

MustangChuck

PS: Ken, where did you get the Econoline belts? If I recall reading, you bought them new. I did a search on fordparts.com and saw that they were about $325 for both fronts.