[Polar_Bear_Papi_]

Hi guys, I have a 1969 Mustang coupe with an automatic trans, an 8.8 rear end, and a 302. Since I bought it I have modified the engine by adding a 670 Holley 4bbl and an intake manifold, long tube headers, and an exhaust. I don't get nearly enough power from this combo as I would've hoped, so I'm considering budgeting about $3000 over this next year for maybe heads and cam install. I'm pretty sure I could comfortably have these $1,300 aluminum AFR heads installed in a shop within my budget but I'm assuming the cam install would set me over budget what do you guys think? Is this a good plan?

AFR Heads:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Q

I've heard people recommend getting a set of GT-40 heads off an Explorer in a junkyard and a mild cam for a smooth nearly 250-300hp, but I've seen some youtube videos of people taking them off and breaking bolts, etc. it seems like a lot of trouble for some ran through iron heads saving a few hundred bucks and getting far less performance. I also love the look of the AFRs and am happy to spend the money.

 

[Polar_Bear_Papi_]

I am located in the northern Bay Area near Sonoma County if anyone knows any good Ford mechanics to refer me to for the installation.

 

[W427]

I don't get nearly enough power from this combo as I would've hoped

There are many "recipes" out there for 302 build combinations that work best. All the parts you will need and will work together well, and what you need to do. I would find some of those to consider, after making a goals list.

"More power" is not a goal you can reach efficiently and cost-effectively. Having specific performance goals will allow you to pick a winner easily as it will be a good fit for your goals, and give best satisfaction in the end. Note that other mods from safety equipment to gears, converter/clutch, etc, may be required for best goals performance. Good luck!

 

[Klutch]

I would suggest you try tuning what you have:

- The 670 is a little large for what you have, but you can make it work well. Check the spark plugs to see if the carb is running rich

- Where is the ignition timing?

- You can install an Edelbrock Performer cam with everything else being stock. It's a big improvement over the factory broomstick. Anything more aggressive will require a new valve train, larger rear gear and an higher RPM torque converter

- If you install another cam, have the distributor calibrated to match the cam

- Likely your rear gear is pretty puny. Install a 3.55 or larger with a limited slip. This will set make your car WAY more peppy and will set you up well for future mods.

Have fun!

 

[Wiseguy59]

Don't forget to include machine work in your budget.
That can add up in a hurry, not mention finding a reputable machine shop!

 

[Polar_Bear_Papi_]

I would suggest you try tuning what you have:

- The 670 is a little large for what you have, but you can make it work well. Check the spark plugs to see if the carb is running rich

- Where is the ignition timing?

- You can install an Edelbrock Performer cam with everything else being stock. It's a big improvement over the factory broomstick. Anything more aggressive will require a new valve train, larger rear gear and an higher RPM torque converter

- If you install another cam, have the distributor calibrated to match the cam

- Likely your rear gear is pretty puny. Install a 3.55 or larger with a limited slip. This will set make your car WAY more peppy and will set you up well for future mods.

Have fun!

Thank you for your response. The timing is set to 14 degrees advanced; it was at about 25 to 30 previously, (tuned on premium gas), and that was better; it also didn't pink at all. So I am planning on advancing it again.

Considering your plan, but gearing is about $200, and a limited slip (or posi traction) system is $500 at the cheapest, plus install. I feel $700 is a lot to spend on a stock differential.

In regards to the cam, people charge around $800 in labor for camshaft installs, and the camshaft with lifters and matching springs is nearly $500, I would think if they are deep in the engine anyway to install the heads, it would be easier to install the cam, no?

The budget for your idea would be around $1300 for the cam install and parts, and around $700 for the diff. This is just according to some Google searching, correct me if I am wrong, and I am not sure if these estimates are precise. I don't feel this is great bang for buck. That's around the same price as the head install with labor; I can't see that being a better option.

 

[Polar_Bear_Papi_]

There are many "recipes" out there for 302 build combinations that work best. All the parts you will need and will work together well, and what you need to do. I would find some of those to consider, after making a goals list.

"More power" is not a goal you can reach efficiently and cost-effectively. Having specific performance goals will allow you to pick a winner easily as it will be a good fit for your goals, and give best satisfaction in the end. Note that other mods from safety equipment to gears, converter/clutch, etc, may be required for best goals performance. Good luck!

Thank you for your response, and I see where you are coming from. I liked your note about making sure I have the other supporting mods to make this safe combination. I guess what I am asking for is what are your suggestions for bang for buck upgrades to my engine considering the modifications I have done already. Do the heads make sense to save up for?

 

[Woodchuck]

First step... determine what you actually have to build upon. Most likely, the engine has seen a rebuild in the past. What pistons were used? If they were the typical "rebuilder" slugs with 1.585" compression height then you're going to be fighting an uphill battle against low compression and detonation potential. Step two is the small-block Ford's known "bottleneck"... cylinder head flow, particularly the exhaust side. A side-note.... I wouldn't waste my money on the AFR "Enforcer" unless you're willing to have port work done to make them as good as the "Renegade" which explains the difference in price between the two. The #1399 is head and shoulders above the "Enforcer". Step three is selecting a camshaft that will work with your build and intended use, not just something "off the shelf" that promises "good performance" within a certain rpm range or a "lopey idle" so your car "sounds cool"... (I can do that by pulling the choke halfway out. lol).

"On a budget" means having to pick which improvements will return the best "return on investment" so weigh the costs and benefits carefully.

 

[W427]

Are you modifying for performance or cost? It's a balance, but the results are typically the goal, not the mod that's cheapest but doesn't get you where you want to go. You still have not made that clear. Enough power to chirp the tires accelerating? Smoke 'em from 50 mph? Make your passengers pee the seat a little when you hit it?

Bang for the buck from driver's perspective - gears, exhaust, heads, intake, cam, converter, other; generally in that order to get the benefits of each. You can do them out-of-order, but you won't see the full benefits of each until you do them all, or at least the preceding ones.

It's a juggle, and the components must match the goals and each other, or it's a mess instead of a win, e.g., the gears should put the engine rpm into the range the eventual cam will make best power, so you should have … goals and a plan to know what that is.

If your plan is constrained by budget and time, then it can cause a re-do of some stuff that is not beneficial or worse until you can do other stuff, e.g., the cam that can't breathe in the rpm range it needs through the exhaust that's restrictive from the heads that flow squat… and so on. It is common to delay the build until enough of the components can be assembled at one time or close succession for best benefit. Have fun and do your thing!

 

[Klutch]

Thank you for your response. The timing is set to 14 degrees advanced; it was at about 25 to 30 previously, (tuned on premium gas), and that was better; it also didn't pink at all. So I am planning on advancing it again.

Considering your plan, but gearing is about $200, and a limited slip (or posi traction) system is $500 at the cheapest, plus install. I feel $700 is a lot to spend on a stock differential.

In regards to the cam, people charge around $800 in labor for camshaft installs, and the camshaft with lifters and matching springs is nearly $500, I would think if they are deep in the engine anyway to install the heads, it would be easier to install the cam, no?

The budget for your idea would be around $1300 for the cam install and parts, and around $700 for the diff. This is just according to some Google searching, correct me if I am wrong, and I am not sure if these estimates are precise. I don't feel this is great bang for buck. That's around the same price as the head install with labor; I can't see that being a better option.

- 25-30 BTDC at idle is kinda high. If it runs better at that setting, likely your harmonic balancer has slipped and what it's showing is not accurate

- Not wanting to spend money on gearing is common. I get it. It's not sexy like aluminum heads and a big cam. But if you do install aluminum heads and a bigger cam, you will simply roast the right rear tire at any attempt to accelerate. And the small gear won't work well with a bigger cam

- It sounds like you don't have the budget for professional builds, which I get. I would strongly suggest you learn how to wrench on your own car. It's really not that complicated. There's really no point in installing a big cam with factory heads. The factory valve train won't work anyway. (Factory rocker arms don't have much travel/movement.) So, if you really want something with a lot of horsepower, it's going to take new heads and new cam. Factory 302 are just downright anemic.

 

[Polar_Bear_Papi_]

First step... determine what you actually have to build upon. Most likely, the engine has seen a rebuild in the past. What pistons were used? If they were the typical "rebuilder" slugs with 1.585" compression height then you're going to be fighting an uphill battle against low compression and detonation potential. Step two is the small-block Ford's known "bottleneck"... cylinder head flow, particularly the exhaust side. A side-note.... I wouldn't waste my money on the AFR "Enforcer" unless you're willing to have port work done to make them as good as the "Renegade" which explains the difference in price between the two. The #1399 is head and shoulders above the "Enforcer". Step three is selecting a camshaft that will work with your build and intended use, not just something "off the shelf" that promises "good performance" within a certain rpm range or a "lopey idle" so your car "sounds cool"... (I can do that by pulling the choke halfway out. lol).

"On a budget" means having to pick which improvements will return the best "return on investment" so weigh the costs and benefits carefully.

When I bought the car 2 years ago, the seller said it has been recently rebuilt, to give you some perspective on the level of the rebuild, Idk if this helps, there was a 2bbl carb, orange painted valve springs, stock looking rocker arms, and flat top pistons; (as far as I can remember from when I put the camera in the spark plug hole trying to find tdc). The engine was mostly rebuilt, I guess on a budget and to stock specs, but there were long tube headers and a full exhaust. I've heard others say the same thing about those heads; they said the 165R would be better than the 205E because of better quality parts, but anything over $2k for heads is stretching my budget, and that's how much the Renegades cost. You said "waste money" but I can imagine they must be much better than the eBay brand aluminum heads or GT-40 heads for the price, right? In my head $1300 is a good price for how much better than the stock ones they will be.

 

[Woodchuck]

When I bought the car 2 years ago, the seller said it has been recently rebuilt, to give you some perspective on the level of the rebuild, Idk if this helps, there was a 2bbl carb, orange painted valve springs, stock looking rocker arms, and flat top pistons; (as far as I can remember from when I put the camera in the spark plug hole trying to find tdc). The engine was mostly rebuilt, I guess on a budget and to stock specs, but there were long tube headers and a full exhaust. I've heard others say the same thing about those heads; they said the 165R would be better than the 205E because of better quality parts, but anything over $2k for heads is stretching my budget, and that's how much the Renegades cost. You said "waste money" but I can imagine they must be much better than the eBay brand aluminum heads or GT-40 heads for the price, right? In my head $1300 is a good price for how much better than the stock ones they will be.

A couple notes about those heads....
First, they are 64cc chambers. That means you'll be dumping 1/2 point in static compression just by bolting them on. Your OE '69 302 heads are 59.2cc.
Second, they have 2.02" intake valves. With flat topped pistons with no valve reliefs you could very well have piston-to-valve interference issues. I haven't looked closely at the combustion chambers on that particular head to know if the intake valve is shrouded or not.
Third, those heads are set-up for a hydraulic ROLLER cam which means you're going to have to invest in $700+ worth of link-bar lifters and a roller cam or a reduced-base-circle roller cam and a dog-bone-spider set-up.
Lastly, the flow numbers are just not all that good, considering. Here's a comparison of those heads with the AFR #1399 and stock GT-40P Explorer heads. The "bottleneck" with Ford heads isn't the intake side, it's the exhaust and this is where the #1399's shine. Even the GT-40P isn't that much worse in the mid-lift valve ranges. The #1399's are also 58cc so you'll be bumping compression just a tad, too.

 

[Huskinhano]

Pretty much what the others said especially timing. I'm pretty much a cheap skate, tight wad. I have no shame in usec stuff most of the time. My intake is a used Stealth intake I paid $80. My carb came from someone's yard shead, $125 my cam was $60, used of course. Even my motor was used. Timing has been mentioned and I want to stress this very important. Again I did this on the cheap and myself. I altered my total mechanical advance by limiting it which allowed more initial timing and having it come in quicker. This really picked up response in every day driving. The engine feels like it gained about 30 cubic inches. However I'm not advocating you start tearing your distributor apart. I knew what I wanted to do. I had my plan for what would work and if I was wrong, it's on me and on my time and expense. This is really something left to a pro.

On the other hand if I want something I want something I will spend the money. A case in point is my recent steering wheel purchase. It basically cost me what I spent on my motor, manifold, carb and cam.

 

[Klutch]

That is a spiffy steering wheel!

 

[Huskinhano]

That is a spiffy steering wheel!

I love it! Worth every penny. It’s absolutely gorgeous.