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Push rod length…what did you measure on your build…?

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1.7K views 14 replies 7 participants last post by  BlueOvalFan67  
#1 · (Edited)
I know measuring push rod lengths are unique to every build, but I’m looking to gut check on my results. If you’ve gone through this exercise please let my know what you found using AFR heads—I think TF are taller and typically have longer PRs.

Here‘s what I have:
  • Comp 1.6 Ultra Pro Rockers
  • AFR 185 Renegades
  • 0.040” head gasket
  • Preload 0.0375” (3/4 turn)
  • 2.300” seat height lifter on a std base circle
  • 0.565” lift hydraulic roller cam
I measured about 6.550” for best pattern. What say you...? What did you find with your components—lifter height is important.

Pictures because it’s fun to look at stuff!
 
#6 · (Edited)
I had thought you wanted the wear line in the center of the valve stem, 6.55 looks like wear line is more to the outside to me? 6.45 looks more centered to me. What is the BKM? I want to learn too :)
Actually, smallest sweep is always preferred over being centered, well it needs to be at least in the middle 3rd of the stem. In fact you want it a little offset towards the exhaust side. Smallest sweep translates into least side load and guide longevity, plus the slight exhaust side offset makes for a more stable valve train according to several docs I’ve read.


Are both intake and exhaust valves at the same height or is it an optical illusion that the intake looks taller....
You are correct—good eye. The exhaust sits 0.020” lower—not sure why AFR does that but they are all like that.
 
#13 ·
Actually, smallest sweep is always preferred over being centered, well it needs to be at least in the middle 3rd of the stem. In fact you want it a little offset towards the exhaust side. Smallest sweep translates into least side load and guide longevity, plus the slight exhaust side offset makes for a more stable valve train according to several docs I’ve read.



You are correct—good eye. The exhaust sits 0.020” lower—not sure why AFR does that but they are all like that.
The you should have different intake and exhaust pushrods...
 
#7 ·
And here you go…

The selected Trickflow 6.550” pushrods installed on a hydraulic lifter made solid to the proper preload, all under full spring load (AFR 8019) produced this final wear pattern.

I think the 6.550” is the winner 🥇
Image
 
#9 · (Edited)
I’m sorta being different here, but I was looking for longevity and a modest boost to the original 289 2v in my ’68. I was all over the board with a 393 vs 408, but eventually landed on a 331. Since I have a California Special I didn’t want to chase upgrades all the way through the drivetrain—or at least keep the 8” rear but beefed up.

Having said that, here’s the spec:
  • Holley 650dp
  • AirGap RPM with mild port matching
  • 185 AFR Renegades
  • 1.6 Comp Ultra Pro Rockers
  • Johnson USA Link bar lifters
  • Howard Cam; 220325-12 (58d~5d)AD (Int/Exh): 278/286, @ .050: 225/233, @ .200: 147/154, Lift: .560/.565, LSA/ICL: 112/108 ground on 1055 billet core
  • Melling 10687 Oil Pump
  • 8.2” Dart Block, w/main studs—I wanted the 4 bolt mains to support 7000rpm
  • Mahle 6.5cc flat top 1mm ring pack
  • Scat Forged Rods (7/16” end cap bolts)
  • Scat Forged Crank
  • Romac Red Balancer
  • FPA Headers
expecting about 430hp & 410tq, but it might go a little higher, I hope 🤞. As soon as I get it all together it’s off to the dyno for tuning.
 
#11 · (Edited)
You know already 😉

This is another area where I went back and fourth, I would really luv a TKX but I feel this overwhelming desire to try and keep as much of this ‘68 in its original form. Less I forget to add I really like the looks of the OE console so I’m swapping (and keeping) the C4 for a 4R70W.

Im a little distracted with the engine build but I am mostly done rebuilding the clutch packs and installing seals. I think I just need to install a new pump bushing and I can restack everything and checked the final endplay.

Once I get the dyno results I can decide on what tq converter it needs, but I’m thinking Circle D at about 2800rpm stall.

Hoping to be on the road by spring time 🤞

Image
Image
 
#12 ·
I’m sorta being different here, but I was looking for longevity and a modest boost to the original 289 2v in my ’68. I was all over the board with a 393 vs 408, but eventually landed on a 331. Since I have a California Special I didn’t want to chase upgrades all the way through the drivetrain—or at least keep the 8” rear but beefed up.

Having said that, here’s the spec:
  • Holley 650dp
  • AirGap RPM with mild port matching
  • 185 AFR Renegades
  • 1.6 Comp Ultra Pro Rockers
  • Johnson USA Link bar lifters
  • Howard Cam; 220325-12 (58d~5d)AD (Int/Exh): 278/286, @ .050: 225/233, @ .200: 147/154, Lift: .560/.565, LSA/ICL: 112/108 ground on 1055 billet core
  • Melling 10687 Oil Pump
  • 8.2” Dart Block, w/main studs—I wanted the 4 bolt mains to support 7000rpm
  • Mahle 6.5cc flat top 1mm ring pack
  • Scat Forged Rods (7/16” end cap bolts)
  • Scat Forged Crank
  • Romac Red Balancer
  • FPA Headers
expecting about 430hp & 410tq, but it might go a little higher, I hope 🤞. As soon as I get it all together it’s off to the dyno for tuning.
View attachment 964092
You know already 😉

This is another area where I went back and fourth, I would really luv a TKX but I feel this overwhelming desire to try and keep as much of this ‘68 in its original form. Less I forget to add I really like the looks of the OE console so I’m swapping (and keeping) the C4 for a 4R70W.

Im a little distracted with the engine build but I am mostly done rebuilding the clutch packs and installing seals. I think I just need to install a new pump bushing and I can restack everything and checked the final endplay.

Once I get the dyno results I can decide on what tq converter it needs, but I’m thinking Circle D at about 2800rpm stall.

Hoping to be on the road by spring time 🤞
That’s where I was going with that question: torque converter. I’m running a 3200 stall Circle D converter in my 4r70w, but i’m also running a slightly bigger cam. What gears you planning on running out back? I’m looking forward to seeing what kind of power your engine makes.
 
#14 · (Edited)
When you created these patterns did you notice if the rocker arm was sweeping outward and then back inward to its starting point as the valve goes from zero lift to full lift? This creates the narrowest pattern. 6.550 looks to be doing this or close to this as it is the narrowest pattern. As you use progressively shorter pushrod lengths, the pattern is getting wider and wider and moving closer to center. I like the narrow 6.550 patterns the best, but they are not quite centered. Pushrods deflect so the pattern will be closer to centered in a running engine, but not enough to center them in this case. You can achieve the narrowest possible pattern, but that does not mean the pattern will be centered because the rocker arm length from the fulcrum to the tip may be a bit short or long or the stud is not quite in it's correct location. Rocker arms and heads don't always have perfect dimensions. In a perfect world, you'd get the narrowest pattern that is centered. I tend to go for a centered pattern or slightly outboard pattern (because deflecting pushrods will drive the contact patch back to center a bit) that is still relatively narrow. I'll accept a bit wider pattern from optimum if that's what it takes to center it.
 
#15 · (Edited)
“…What gears you planning on running out back?…”
Currently 3.55

With the steeper 1st gear of the 4R, it makes the rear end effectively a 4.10 (2.84 / 2.46 = 1.154 * 3.55 =4.10). With the modest boost in power, some healthy torque multiplication going on, this thing should rocket off the line. And with OD, the rear would be more like a 0.70 * 3.55 = 2.49 and spinning around 2100rpm vs the 3000 of the C4.

Quicker, faster and I might actually hear the music rather than the whine of the motor 🤣 Can’t wait to try it out!

Once I get the results I’ll be sure to post them!

The you should have different intake and exhaust pushrods...
technically true, but I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze.

Most of the off-the-shelf pushrods come in 0.050” increments, and buying spec pushrods becomes very expensive for little gained.

The best blend of cost and a performance pushrod I could source was trickflow, and with my discount from summit it was $116 for the set. Custom ones from trend are some $13 each plus shipping making them almost double the cost.

Just look at the difference in each 0.050” increments, not sure sourcing a pushrod with just a 0.020” change from the intake side would be a concerning difference.

All I really wanted was least sweep near the center and less than 0.050” wide. The 6.550” & 6.500” were the only ones that fit the bill.

When you created these patterns did you notice if the rocker arm was sweeping outward and then back inward to its starting point as the valve goes from zero lift to full lift? This creates the narrowest pattern. 6.550 looks to be doing this or close to this as it is the narrowest pattern. As you use progressively shorter pushrod lengths, the pattern is getting wider and wider and moving closer to center. I like the narrow 6.550 patterns the best, but they are not quite centered. Pushrods deflect so the pattern will be closer to centered in a running engine, but not enough to center them in this case. You can achieve the narrowest possible pattern, but that does not mean the pattern will be centered because the rocker arm length from the fulcrum to the tip may be a bit short or long or the stud is not quite in it's correct location. Rocker arms and heads don't always have perfect dimensions. In a perfect world, you'd get the narrowest pattern that is centered. I tend to go for a centered pattern or slightly outboard pattern (because deflecting pushrods will drive the contact patch back to center a bit) that is still relatively narrow. I'll accept a bit wider pattern from optimum if that's what it takes to center it.
Agree with everything you said, except I favored the smallest sweep pattern which was found by using a light weight checking spring and adjustable pushrod.

I did look for any lateral movement when in operation and observed none.

interesting enough, when I doctored up a solid lifter from the guts of an old 5.0 OE unit and threw in the actual 6.550” pushrods and head springs, the loads and forces acting on the rocker essentially better centered the sweep pattern, which was one of your points. See post #7.

I may order the 6.500” and throw those in and see how they compare as a last check. In the end, I’m giving this more thought than it probably needs.
 
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