With the control arms being set further into the wheel, you should check to see if the turning radius will be limited in case the inner portion of the rim were to hit the upper control arm. With the larger diameter you gain some, but the the depth might hurt since you're changing the wheels pivot point. One definite benifit would be a reduction in the scrub radius which will help with lighter steering effort if you go with manual steering. You might want to try mock it up before you commit to anything.

 

Great idea. I would love to put in efficient tubular upper and lower arms that don't cost a cool grand. I've been eyeing a similar design myself.

There are a number of places that sell tubular arms, you might want to shop around a bit...

Speedway Motors - Product Summary

Manufacturer Of Stock Race Car Parts

Seems like this can't be all that hard to do.

1. Measure the shaft mounting points - find new arm that is right on or dang close (redrill/weld bracing/etc to make it work).
2. Measure balljoint centerline to shaft centerline to get length (depth) or upper arm.
3. Measure to be sure the new arm doesn't interfere with the rim or space accordingly. May need a more triangular arm shape rather than the U or hoop shape.

4. Make/buy coilover upper brackets to fit in place of the stock spring perch at the upper end.
5. Purchase lower arms and cut to fit. I've seen kits that look dang close to the RonMorris units.
6. Measure and buy coilover kit off the shelf to fit.

You would have to rig up the sway bar end links somehow.

You might need to find upper arms that let you use a double adjuster to be able to properly align the suspension.

Reconfigure your strut rods and voila. Complete tubular front suspension for half the price of the GW/Morris/TCP/Control Freaks/etc kits.

Don't get me wrong, these guys make some REAL nice stuff it is just that I don't want to pay that much for my setup.

Nate

PS: Does anyone have dimensions of the factory arms? Seems like if we could get a list of the various dimensions we could find something close enough to work or could go to Howe/UB Machine/etc and get them to make something.

 

Seems like this can't be all that hard to do.

1. Measure the shaft mounting points - find new arm that is right on or dang close (redrill/weld bracing/etc to make it work).
2. Measure balljoint centerline to shaft centerline to get length (depth) or upper arm.
3. Measure to be sure the new arm doesn't interfere with the rim or space accordingly. May need a more triangular arm shape rather than the U or hoop shape.
4. Make/buy coilover upper brackets to fit in place of the stock spring perch at the upper end.
5. Purchase lower arms and cut to fit. I've seen kits that look dang close to the RonMorris units.
6. Measure and buy coilover kit off the shelf to fit.

You would have to rig up the sway bar end links somehow.

You might need to find upper arms that let you use a double adjuster to be able to properly align the suspension.

Reconfigure your strut rods and voila. Complete tubular front suspension for half the price of the GW/Morris/TCP/Control Freaks/etc kits.

Nate

Sounds easy!

I've spent years designing, road and track testing, aligning, checking camber curves, re-designing, new prototypes ($$$'s), aligning, checking, testing etc. and I've only got the upper and lower control arms to a point I'm happy with.

The first challange is actually getting it all to fit. The hardest part is getting it so it fits AND works. Its not just as simple as bolting on parts. You have to understand camber curves, shock valving, spring rates, motion ratios etc. and how it all works together. Not to mention all the engineering involved, material spec and sizing needed to make sure it doesn't break/bend.

Please be careful buying parts for other cars of different weights, load paths etc. and using them in ways they were perhaps not designed for. I would hate to see someone hurt their car or worse.

 

Shaun -

I agree with you in that it can't be as simple as I made it out to be...but it can't be that hard either. I agree that you certainly wouldn't want to go about this in a willy-nilly fashion...that's why I still don't have a set on my car yet. I'm waiting for somebody else to figure out what works off the shelf. ;-)

On the upper arm:
My thought is to use a new arm that duplicates the dimensions of the factory arm - I'll add a negative wedge kit and do the Shelby drop to get better handling and more negative wedge and larger tire fitment. Get an arm w/o the center (where the spring saddle fits) and plan to run a coilover kit. Add in an adjuster system - thread heims in/out of threaded shafts (similar to your kit) or use a double adjuster like the TCP kits. This seems to solve the problem of fitting, gives me a no-friction/no bind arm. Use a quality company like AFCO, etc. for the material (they build stuff for NASCAR/ circle track, etc)...surely that will suffice on a mostly street vintage Mustang...?

On the lower arm:
Use a "tube type" arm like Morris uses and run a coilover kit. Again, use the same adjuster style as above. You get zero bind, screw in ball joint with a better angle (what do you need, 7*? 11*?) welded in, etc. Hook it to a good set of strut rods like <fill in the blank> or a home made set and viola.

Couple of pictures to illustrate my point. These aren't exactly as I described above but should get us in the ballpark.

I don't intend to be rude or knock anybody's tubular arm kits at all. I really like the looks of just about anything out there. It just seems like we're reinventing the wheel a bit...

OK, 'nuff mouthing off.

Nate

 

Shaun -

I agree with you in that it can't be as simple as I made it out to be...but it can't be that hard either. I agree that you certainly wouldn't want to go about this in a willy-nilly fashion...that's why I still don't have a set on my car yet. I'm waiting for somebody else to figure out what works off the shelf. ;-)

On the upper arm:
My thought is to use a new arm that duplicates the dimensions of the factory arm - I'll add a negative wedge kit and do the Shelby drop to get better handling and more negative wedge and larger tire fitment. Get an arm w/o the center (where the spring saddle fits) and plan to run a coilover kit. Add in an adjuster system - thread heims in/out of threaded shafts (similar to your kit) or use a double adjuster like the TCP kits. This seems to solve the problem of fitting, gives me a no-friction/no bind arm. Use a quality company like AFCO, etc. for the material (they build stuff for NASCAR/ circle track, etc)...surely that will suffice on a mostly street vintage Mustang...?

On the lower arm:
Use a "tube type" arm like Morris uses and run a coilover kit. Again, use the same adjuster style as above. You get zero bind, screw in ball joint with a better angle (what do you need, 7*? 11*?) welded in, etc. Hook it to a good set of strut rods like <fill in the blank> or a home made set and viola.

Couple of pictures to illustrate my point. These aren't exactly as I described above but should get us in the ballpark.

I don't intend to be rude or knock anybody's tubular arm kits at all. I really like the looks of just about anything out there. It just seems like we're reinventing the wheel a bit...

OK, 'nuff mouthing off.

Nate

I admire anybody that can take a good stab at any project, it takes balls!

I've never seen an AFCO piece that will work without modification which will add to the cost. Unless you can weld/fabricate compitently, once you get into modifying the stock car parts the cost will go way up. Those barrell adjusters are gimmicky IMO. They will make your alignment seem easier but you'll end up with different distances between pivot points on either side of the car which will result in different camber curves etc. and thus a different feeling car turning left and right.

Forget about getting a custom arm built for any less than the big guys are selling them for. I'm having to invest a small fortune in a batch of arms just to get the price point I need to make a small profit. No wonder all the big guys charge so much. If you can get the AFCO stuff to work with minimal mods, you may come out ahead. If they need more work, custom shafts, changed ball joint angles etc., I think you'll spend more than buying some already designed to work. I should know, I've looked for years for something that was a bolt on and decided the only way to get something to work the right way was to build from scratch.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing what you come up with. :thumbsup:

 

These were the arms I was looking at but the cross shaft is drilled for 6 inch spaced holes (or did you find 5") and on my 68 the holes are 5 inches apart and didn't look like I could space them any farther. Anyone know if when doing the shelby drop you can space the holes at 6 inches apart and be safe?

 

68gtcs...

That seems to be the biggest hangup to me. I can't find anybody that makes the mounting points of the shaft that are the same as the early Mustangs.

I have seen adjustable arms though...this looks like a bit of a sketchy method though. I'd really prefer something fully welded unit. Upper Control Arms IMCA Modifieds

Why can't we get AFCO to build us a set or something? Seems they could build them just like the stock car chassis arms...right?

Nate

PS: I just remembered - why can't we get somebody to make some custom shafts, drilled to fit our spacing and then hang one of these other off the shelf arms from it? The problem here is that there is limited space inside the shock tower to hang a control arm that is much bigger than the factory...at least as far as width overall. Make sense?

PSS: Another vendor with a good looking kit...I inquired as to whether they could part the kit out...waiting to hear back. http://autofabcart.net/1967-1970mustangtubularcontrolarmsandcoil-overconversionkit.aspx

 

...dang it Shaun. You're about to talk me into your kit.

;-)

Nate

 

...dang it Shaun. You're about to talk me into your kit.

;-)

Nate

LOL, my post wasn't meant as self promotion. I wanted to let you know how involved the project is and more importantly highlight the safety aspect. Not too mention it always take twice as long as you think and costs way more money! At least everything I do does!

That being said, the pre-release deal is prettty sweet!

 

I looked on the ub machine site and found 2 upper arms with potential. the first are the ones with the slotted holes which go from 5 to 7 inches using slugs. The other ones are on pg 15 with the double heims on a shaft with 6 inch mount holes. I was thinking about using these and taking a piece of 1 1/4 ( or whatever size works) square solid aluminum or steel and drilling the 5 inch mount holes then drilling and taping the ends to accept the bolts for the heims. The both come in 10" lengths which are the same as the stock ford arms? What do you think?

 

68' -

I'm not sure I can tell which arms on UB Machine's website you're talking about...

From what I could tell, just scanning through the PDF catalog, we would be interested in the "15", "16" or "19" series upper arms. I like the heim jointed one but I didn't see that it is offered in the 10" length (did you measure off a stock arm, center of shaft to center of balljoint?).

They offer a shaft drilled for 5" wide mounting bolts so we should be good to go there.

Question - are you planning on getting a plate-style bolt in ball joint and adding a negative wedge kit, like you would to a stock arm?

Question - assuming yes to the above, we would need to make sure that the mounting plane for the plate-style ball joint is at the same plane as in the stock arm, relative to the mounting shaft...if you look at the stock arm, ball joint towards you, arm upright, shaft parallel to the ground...where is the ball joint mount point relative to the shaft - above, level with it or below it? Seems we would need to figure this in.

Question - UB Machine says they can custom build arms to customer specs. What about taking detailed measurements and having them build a set or several and try those out? Shaun made the comment that this is unlikely to be cheaper than one of the ready-built kits on the market and while I am inclined to agree with his assessment, seems like its worth asking them.

Question - what about something sort of funky like the 19-0806 part number arm? One leg of the arm is angled differently with the ball joint mount point in the centered location, relative to the shaft mount points. Might be a way to get more/different clearance around a bigger tire combo or something.

Question - looks like the "25" series lower is about what we would need. Add an aftermarket solid mount strut rod and a coilover kit and voila. Would need spacers to fit the heim joint end into the factory location but that's easy enough. See above for considerations of the where and at what angle the ball joint mount point is in relation to the mounting shaft/heim joint.

What do YOU think?

Nate

 

did some measurements on my stock arms today. My car has no motor or fenders and the battery apron and radiator support are out for replacment which gives me a good view from the front of all the suspension points. The car als has adjustable mock up springs set at ride height to mimmic the suspension with all the weight on it.

The upper arms are 10" from the center of ball joint to the center of the mount pivot. I used an angle finder on a flat section which appeared to be level with the ground and got 2 degrees up. I then measure on the mounting bolts for the ball joint (which seem to be on the same plane) and got 20 degrees up which means the ball joints sould be set at 18 degrees. This leads me to believe that doing the 7 degree new arms would aleviate the need to do a negitive wedge kit when lowering the upper arm mounts.

The lowers are 15 3/4 from the center of ball joint to center of mounting pivot and measured the same way the ball joint is at 8 degrees up. The new lower arms all seem to be at 0 degrees which should be ok since it would leave the ball joint in the middle of it's travel.

Should have time tomorrow to mock up my rims and see see what width arms I can run, will try to post pics.

 

stangman 69 don't be intimidated by folks telling you that you can't do it. I DID IT, I had no choice since I cut, and moved my shock towers in two inches on both sides.

I'm got flamed on another forum asking for measurements from tower to tower on a 67 Mustang when I answered someone's question of "why" I wanted to know said length.

Which is why Im not going into detail here on how I did it, but it works with a 600+lbs FE between the towers.

Another thing I did was make my own 13" front brakes {for another Mustang}. Yes, you will have to cut, and weld, but so what? Also, Ill give one hint here, make a small scale wood model of the suspension first in stock, then with the "Shelby drop", then with the parts you will be using.

Look at how everything works. Take your time and you can do it...................PM me if you want to know more.

 

stangman 69 don't be intimidated by folks telling you that you can't do it. I DID IT, I had no choice since I cut, and moved my shock towers in two inches on both sides.

I'm got flamed on another forum asking for measurements from tower to tower on a 67 Mustang when I answered someone's question of "why" I wanted to know said length.

Which is why Im not going into detail here on how I did it, but it works with a 600+lbs FE between the towers.

Another thing I did was make my own 13" front brakes {for another Mustang}. Yes, you will have to cut, and weld, but so what? Also, Ill give one hint here, make a small scale wood model of the suspension first in stock, then with the "Shelby drop", then with the parts you will be using.

Look at how everything works. Take your time and you can do it...................PM me if you want to know more.

I don't see any posts saying he can't do it. I see a few saying be careful and budget carefully.

Another alternative to a wooden model is a suspension software package like this - 3D Double A Arm Wishbone Suspension Bump Steer Software Program You'll be able to easily make changes to lengths, angles etc. and see the results.

 

MTrain -

I certainly don't feel flamed or discouraged from trying by Shaun or anyone else in this thread, so far...

PM to be sent shortly...thanks.

I very much appreciate Shaun's (and others) wise council to "be careful"...

Shaun -
Thanks for the link.

Nate

 

mtrain

I would love to know more as well but I have never pm anyone how is it done? Thanks

 

no worries mate, i already did. i'll let you know what he says...or, if you haven't already replied mtrain, would you cc '68' on your replay to me?

thanks,
nate

 

pm sent yesterday..........

 

Talked to ub machine today and told him I was interested in the 19 series uppers and 25 series lowers. He said the uppers any length with the 5 inch bolt spacing and the screw in ball joint at whatever angle we want are $70.00 each, and the lowers any length and angle are $45-50.00 each and if everything was in stock he could have them in 2 weeks (1 week if bare metal, 2 for powder coated).

Also anyone know if you can swap mustang II spindles side to side to make them rear steer or does it throw off the caster? I have an extra set that are slightly shorter than my 74 mavericks I have now which hit the inner rim slightly. the mustang II spindles are 1/2 inch shorter, which I figure on doing the shelby drop at 1 3/4 will net 1 1/4 drop still giving a nice negitive camber gain, but let me use longer arms to reduce the scrub radius wihout interfering with the rim.

 

Also anyone know if you can swap mustang II spindles side to side to make them rear steer or does it throw off the caster?

You're caster is controlled by the position you place the control arms ... Sure the angle of the spindle will change and affect the steering arm, but that's not going to affect caster, it's going to affect bump steer. I think it could affect ackerman as well...

but let me use longer arms to reduce the scrub radius wihout interfering with the rim.

What? Longer arms to reduc scrub radius? Scrub radius is the relationship of the tires centerline relative to the king pin angle... whether your arm is 10 inches long or 10 feet long won't matter one bit... the spindle's ball joint mounting points relative to the spindle, hub selection (offset), wheel offset are some of the parameters that affect scrub radius.

Quite honestly, based on the statements above I think you have a lot more research to do before you start buying parts. Models and software aren't going to help you until you can at least visualise how everything can / should work together. The models and software will help you tweak / fine tune lengths and placement of each of the compoents.... lots of moving parts here. So, if you don't have any previous experience working on suspension design then you surely better heed Shaun's advise and be extemely cautious...

Herb Adams Chassis Engineering is a pretty good book for understanding basic suspension concepts. Buy that, then place you order for Shaun's kit...

 

5" bolt spacing? Are you going to drill new holes wider than stock?

 

sorry 5 inch spacing on the upper control arm shaft to shock tower bolt spacing.

 

My comment about the caster was a brain fart on my part. But as for the longer arms in my first post I stated that I have late model 18x9 bullitts for the front which need a spacer to fit. If I am designing a new system ( and the math works out) using longer arms instead of a spacer puts the spindle farther into the rim making it closer to the center line of the tire and therefore reducing the scrub radius correct? I may go with stock lenght arms the only problems I see with that wide of a rim are hitting the springs or other components while turning.
As for the chassis engineering book I bought it a few weeks ago and have been busy reading and drawing different suspension schematics and measuring all the parameters it has been a big help so I don't have to ask so many questions here but I guess we all have to start learning somewhere i mean if we all knew everything there wouldn't be a need for the forums right?

 

My comment about the caster was a brain fart on my part. But as for the longer arms in my first post I stated that I have late model 18x9 bullitts for the front which need a spacer to fit. If I am designing a new system ( and the math works out) using longer arms instead of a spacer puts the spindle farther into the rim making it closer to the center line of the tire and therefore reducing the scrub radius correct?

I hear you now... but it's the spacer that affects the scrub radius, not the control arm. You're using the control arm to re gain the track width lost with the spacer and as an end result, you're improving the scrub radius.

I may go with stock lenght arms the only problems I see with that wide of a rim are hitting the springs or other components while turning.
As for the chassis engineering book I bought it a few weeks ago and have been busy reading and drawing different suspension schematics and measuring all the parameters it has been a big help so I don't have to ask so many questions here but I guess we all have to start learning somewhere i mean if we all knew everything there wouldn't be a need for the forums right?

Agreed, sorry I sounded a little harsh, but when you brought up the M2 spindle, it threw me a bit because in my mind the spindle is the most important piece and probably the first piece that would affect all of your selections for other components. The distance between ball joints, spindle relation ship betwen the ball joints, king pin angle, steering knuckle relation ship etc. are all going to have a significant impact on everything. The spindle / hub selection alone could change your scrub radius dramatically. In my mind it just seemed like you were working the solution in the wrong order and or not thinking through the other cause / effects...
and yes, that book is agreat reference, and true the forum can help fill in the blanks.

 

hmmm...

'68' -

Very interesting about the quasi-custom arms from UB Machine. I'm going to revisit the coil over conversion and tubular control arms idea if I can get arms for those kind of prices. I just need to get somebody to sell me a coil over bracket like some of the finished kits have. I'd like to mount the coilover shock in the stock location in the top center of the shock tower - like the TCP/Ron Morris kits. Then, scrounge up a set of coilover shocks, hit Shaun up for his strut rods and voila, hit the road and see what breaks. ;-)

Instead of the gyrations with length of the control arms, different spindles and all the rest - why don't you just use a spacer to fit the larger wheels in there? You can get hub centric spacers if you are concerned with introducing weakness into that part, run ARP studs and bolt-on spacers (instead of the slip on versions) and hit the road...? If the problem is the size of the wheels (18")...have you considered dropping to a 17" rim?

Hub-centric wheel adapters/spacers - http://www.bernardembden.com/xjs/hubcentric/index.htm

Nate

PS: According to the dodgestang wheel/tire fitment chart, 18's will fit fine...so never mind my recommendation to go down to 17's. But the point still stands - you don't need to worry about the spacer issue if you maintain the proper backspacing. Go with the factory Ford 18" wheel, add an adapter/spacer to get back to the proper backspacing for that width wheel under the early Mustang fenders and you should be good to go.
http://www.dodgestang.com/Tire Fitment Guide 67-8.pdf

 

After lots of measuring I think my best bet is to keep the stock spindles and get the spacers with stock length control arms. However when I get the new arms I want to order them with the ball joints at less angle to do the 1 3/4 uca drop and not bind. The stock seems to be at 18 degrees what should I go something like 10 degrees, 7, what do you guys think? thanks for all the help

Nick

 

"anything" is possible.. but i looked at the Howe- Coleman racing and Speedway etc a arms-- coleman as well as AA both sell the parts to make your own arms as well-- Coleman will custom make lengths but NOT center shafts.

by the time i made a jig- and made a double adj collar like TCP uses on the uppers and did the dropped a-arm shaft
i'd end up making a run of them and decided there was a enough mustang suspension choices and opted to buy TCP ( Shaun didnt have any to compare at the time)

i've made lots of road racing control arms but the mustangs design/measurements dont lend itself to using off the shelf circle track stuff easily.

i had a one off made for the rear 4 link but there is no kit that compares to what i have put there..

 

68 -

any progress? did you find out anything on the recommended ball joint angle?

i've not had any time this week to do any thinking or research on it.

nate

 

stangman69,
Not much progress, after looking at tcp's upper arm they lower the uca mount but keep the ball joint at 0 degrees which is what I was thinking about for mine. otherwise I am making my final measurements hopefully next week and then order the arms.

 

'68' -

What are the bushings made out of for those arms you are looking at? I can't tell whether they are poly or something else...? I'm wondering if they are as "bind-less" as a heim joint and also what about replacement parts...

Keep us posted.

Nate

 

-68-

...how's the project coming? Got the arms in yet?

Nate