[app01]

car = 1970 Mach 1 Mustang, Concurs Driven,

I have a few questions on how the points are subtracted after reading the rules.

*** Section 2- Exterior, L= Glass
This section states a 4 point deduction if not Carlite glass. My question is, is the deduction of 4 points per each windows that is incorrect? For example if all glass is Carlite except for the windshield, what would be the expected points deduction.

*** Section 5- Undercarriage, Q=Exhaust system
If the car would have originally come with single exhaust and now it has a dual exhaust, are all 8 points lost?

General question. On items that also have points for workmanship, condition and cleanliness, how are those points subtracted on an item that is completely incorrect? Example. The car has headers rather then the correct exhaust manifolds, yet in perfect condition would you still loose the workmanship, condition and cleanliness points? I know you would loose the 2 points for the manifold, but do you loose all associated points?

Thanks again,

Tony

 

[Roddster]

There is a split between the correct hardware, and the condition it is in.
As far as your questions go, assuming this is the MCA rules as you mentioned "concours driven". In my opinion, I wouldn't take all the points off for just the incorrect windshield. After all, there are 4 windows (and maybe 6, maybe 8). Beware, there is also the possibility just the "Carlite" is the newer mark, not the old original style. Becareful of what you buy.
I might take all the points for the exhaust, and especially the headers. But, if the headers are clean, coated, not rusty, you would keep the points for condition.
And, having said this, this is just MY opinion. Cars are usually judged by a team. If 2 out of three say all points off (or 3 out of 4, etc) then it's all points off. And finally, there is a judges meeting before judges start judging. If there are special instructions from the head judge, those would be followed. Most judging teams are trying to be reasonable and consistent. There are exceptions that go both ways.

 

[app01]

Thanks Roddster. I appreciate the feedback.


Tony

 

[ivygreen65]

Tony,

That's the thing with judging, there is no definite answer to your question. Since the judging of your car is subjective, you will probably never have the same score at different shows. As you know, there are points awarded for correctness and separate points awarded for condition, workmanship, and cleanliness (regardless of correctness). Your header example would cause you to lose points due to being incorrect, but you should get the condition/cleanliness points. You should expect no points for dirty, rusty headers.

With regard to glass, the point deduction is for the overall car, so the total points available is 4 points. If you have Carlite windows, but a non-Carlite windshield, you would lose 1 or 2 points. If none of your glass is Carlite, expect a 4 point deduction. Then, the 4 points for condition and workmanship would come into play for condition. No scratches and good stainless trim should net you all 4 points, regardless of Carlite glass or not.

The exhaust would be a judgement call. I can see you getting dinged for all 8 points for incorrect exhaust, since the purpose is for the car to be judged as it came from the factory, but I can also see some points being awarded for a correct type of dual exhaust. Again, condition and workmanship is another 8 points. Those points should not have anything to do with correctness.

This is the reason some people enjoy having their car judged and some people loathe it. It's not an exact science, and you have to go onto the show field knowing that.

 

[app01]

Thanks IvyGreen65.

I am putting 2 of my cars in the Nationals this summer, a 69 Mach 1 in the unrestored class (gold car in 2005), and my 70. I have been debating putting the 70 in the Occasional Driven or Concours driven class. There are a handful of things that I would need to correct to do better in concours, most being minor, but there are a few bigger things such as the exhaust I mentioned, and the rims. My own conservative judging puts me at about 92%

Tony

 

[Laurie_S]

I would take 1 point off for the windshield and all 8 points on originality for the exhaust. If all is in excellent condition, there might not be any points off for workmanship and condition.

 

[carlite65]

I would take 1 point off for the windshield and all 8 points on originality for the exhaust. If all is in excellent condition, there might not be any points off for workmanship and condition.

i agree with laurie. most judges per cent out the points.

 

[Roddster]

And since you added information, here is some more opinion. If you alread know some stuff is incorrect, I hope then you realize that there is a likelyhood you may not get the top award. Some of us entrants at major shows know this. Not only am I a judge, often enough I'm an entrant. Actually, I just like showing my car off. If I get an award, so much the better.
Local shows are a crap shoot. There are the Mayors friends that are the judges, or the village trustees that don't know squat, the fellow who grew up with Chevys, and still needs to grow up because he knows a Ford ain't gonna win.
National multimake shows, I have no idea who are the judges and where they came from.
National Ford and or Mustang shows: Now you have at least some Fomoco knowledge and organization.