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Waid302

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I have been doing some suspension work and at some point will take it to alignment shop. In the mean time I made some alignment bars and checked toe with tape measure and camber with digital angle meter by placing it on the rotor.

For caster checking by placing the digital angle meter on the rotor, do I move the rotor/wheel out by 20 degrees and then 20 degrees in for total of 40 degrees ?

Also If I check toe with my setup, how long the bar must be to get 1/8 toe in ?

Thanks

Waid
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20° each way, 40° total. For toe Id say use the diameter of the tire.

Is that where you are talking readings with the gauge? Normally it's done off the hub or centerline of the wheel. But thinking about it I'm thinking that would work anyway. It's that 40° or basically that equal amount. For X° of turn, the tire is rolling on Y° of tire circumstance
 
Isn't caster the angle between upper and lower control arm ball joints? Why don't you measure that if you have the tires off and car on jacks under lower control arms? Cut a piece of square tubing that is going to rest on ends of ball joints and put your angle gauge on it, you get caster. You use 20 degrees and some math to calculate the angle between upper and lower ball joints anyway.
 
This equation allows you to use any angle so if you can't turn 20 degrees each way because the bar hits something, you can use 15 degrees or other.

Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) / (turnangle1 - turnangle2)]

turn angle 20 degrees each way = 1.43 x camber diff (commonly rounded up to 1.5)

turn angle 15 degrees each way = 1.91 x camber diff (commonly rounded up to 2.0)
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
Isn't caster the angle between upper and lower control arm ball joints? Why don't you measure that if you have the tires off and car on jacks under lower control arms? Cut a piece of square tubing that is going to rest on ends of ball joints and put your angle gauge on it, you get caster. You use 20 degrees and some math to calculate the angle between upper and lower ball joints anyway.
I was thinking about same thing and maybe even quicker. What if take a flat steel stock and bolt it on upper ball joint inside the spindle and place the magnetic angle finder on it?

Would that tell me true caster ?

746053
 
No i'm afraid that would not be accurate. You could MAYBE get a decent measurement by using something like a inside caliper and placing each end of the caliper in the center of the ball joint end and then placing a inclinometer against it, but even this would be difficult to get an accurate measurement because your not measuring from ball joint pivot center to ball joint pivot center. Best to measure alignment at ride height (your doing that with your jack) and the load of the car on the suspension.
 
On your toe-in question you would want to measure at the points where your tires would actually be. That would be half the diameter of the tire from the center of the rotor. That would get you a starting point but you still need to put the car on the ground for all your final adjustments.

You cannot check caster unless you have the car sitting at the ride height. That means wheels on, All four tires on the ground and the weight of the car on the wheels.

Next time your pushing a shopping cart watch the "caster" wheels in the front. That is where the caster alignment word comes from. The stud that attaches the wheel to the basket's frame is mounted ahead of the wheel. The wheel is not pushing the basket the basket is pulling the wheel. You can stop, turn the wheels but as soon as you start rolling forward the wheels straighten right-out because they are being pulled along. That is caster. The further ahead the pulling point is the more caster your have.

Its easy to see caster on a shopping cart but its harder to picture it on a car. Caster is the center-line through the upper and lower ball joints. Its easier to picture what's happening on a straight axle like an old hot rod. The drawing I found below looks like a Mustang with a straight axle (Gasser)


Tilting a solid axle backwards or titling the center-line through the upper and lower ball joints backwards on your Mustangs increases the caster. Too much and it makes it hard to steer. Not enough and the wheels will want to wander around. Looking at the upper drawing below you can see that titling that center-line backwards puts the lower ballpoint out ahead of the center of the wheel so the ball joint is pulling the wheel down the road like a shopping cart
Looking at the lower drawing, tilting the center-line too far forward and now the lower ball joint is behind the center-line of the wheel and its pushing the wheel forward. There is noway it will stay straight.

On my hot rods you could stick an angle gauge directly on top of the kingpin because it is one solid piece going down through the axle and it has a nice flat surface. You could also stick it on the front of the axle and you could read the degrees of tilt backwards that way, which on a '32 Ford you would want around 5 degrees. Real simple to check on one of those cars. Its not as simple on Mustang because you don't have a nice flat surface to measure from.

You need a caster/camber gauge and you need to be able to measure when the wheels are turned 20 degrees special turn table plates. I'm not sure how else you would do it on a Mustang. The amount of times that your would ever use one doesn't justify having it. I get it that your trying to do everything yourself. I do the same thing. I was lucky enough to buy all the equipment out of my friend's, families automotive repair business that had been there since the 1960s. Tire machine, computerized tire balancer, brake rotor and drum lathes, valve grinder, hydraulic press, ignition scope, distributor machine, battery/alternator tester and the alignment tools. I have a bout 15 cars to restore and I like doing everything myself. So eventually I should come out ahead buying all these tools. If I live long enough?



746100
 
Discussion starter · #8 · (Edited)
You cannot check caster unless you have the car sitting at the ride height. That means wheels on, All four tires on the ground and the weight of the car on the wheels.

I first measured the center height of the wheels. Then I removed the wheels and and raised the car up on two jacks at the same ride height. This make is way easy to check the tow & camber. Caster is little different. For me, I am trying to get as much caster as I can due to the fact that I have electric steering column. I like to do as much as I can myself and learn something.

Just to want to make sure I am not missing anything. This is the caster angle that needs to be set. Correct?

Waid

Image
 
I first measured the center height of the wheels. Then I removed the wheels and and raised the car up on two jacks at the same ride height. This make is way easy to check the tow & camber. Caster is little different. For me, I am trying to get as much caster as I can due to the fact that I have electric steering column. I like to do as much as I can myself and learn something.

Just to want to make sure I am not missing anything. This is the caster angle that needs to be set. Correct?

Waid

View attachment 746117
Yes that is the caster, you can measure it using your method with flat steel as I assume the surface you are going to mount the steel (which the ball joint nut sits on) is machined flat. I have not verified if that surface is machined flat so I cut a piece of square tubing and pushed up against the ends of the ball joints (above the nuts) and measured/set caster with the gauge on that tube. You are on the right track I say.
 
Read my write up ? ?

How do you like the Prius ?

Waid
Yes I read your write u; more than once and got a lot information out of it. Thanks a lot for the research and posting the findings.
Prius gives good assist, it is like the original hydraulic assist. Mine almost returns to zero, I am sure 8.5 caster helps. Have very little slop in the original steering box due to manufacturing tolerances (no wear in the gears). Have the worm gear of an other original gear box with no wear electroless nickel plated to reduce the play (from 50 thousands of mm to 15). Need to assemble the box, install it and see how much slop left and if it will have full return to zero.
 
Caster makes the car drive straight going down the road and helps the wheel return to center but king-pin inclination also known as steering axis inclination has a lot to do with the steering wheel returning to center by itself after a turn. It uses the weight of the car to straighten the wheel. If you change the offset of the wheels you have changed the original king-pin inclination engineering and your steering wheel might not return lik it did originally.

Understanding Steering Axis Inclination.
 

Attachments

Discussion starter · #15 ·
I placed a straight edge on the upper and lower ball joint studs sticking pass the nut and placed the digital angle meter. I got 86.2 or 3.8 degrees of caster. Anymore shimming of upper control would take the camber to positive and currently sitting at exactly 90.

Waid

Image
 
I placed a straight edge on the upper and lower ball joint studs sticking pass the nut and placed the digital angle meter. I got 86.2 or 3.8 degrees of caster. Anymore shimming of upper control would take the camber to positive and currently sitting at exactly 90.

Waid

View attachment 746702
I do not have shims under UCA, all my alignment is done with eccentric of LCA and strud rod adjustment. I modified the original type UCAs and moved the upper ball joints back to get 8.5 caster.
 
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