First, clean the top of a piston. It will have .030 stamped on the top (usually) if it is bored out. Look at the bottom of the pistons. Forged pistons are smooth on the backside while cast has, well, casting lines and sharp, hard edges.
As far as the cam, I would consider a custom grind since you have those nice, big heads. You want to use them to their fullest potential.
Any motor with mileage on it will show a partial ridging at the top after it has been bored out.
Your carb and intake should be good, but that all depends on what your cam grinder has to say. You might need a little more breathing ability with those heads. Maybe jump up to an Performer RPM Air Gap and a 650?
I have read that long tubes need to be modified with AOD transmissions, and what did those shortys come out of? If it was a Fox, it wont fit your car.
Check your exhaust ports against the headers with a gasket. With everything out of the car, now is the time.

 

the guy bought the engine from said that the engine only had 500 miles on it since it was bored and got the forged pistons. That's what made me skeptical about the whole deal now that I see the ridging at the top of the cylinder walls. If it only had 500 miles on the new pistons / bore it should still be fresh honed at the top right ? The bottom of the pistons have the marking E7ZE-CA and TRW on them. Is that a stock forged piston ? The engine came out of a 91 notch back stang. If so it has to be a 302 then right ?

are the 185 heads too big to make and 302/306 have a lot of low end grunt ? I want it to be very streetable and run strong in lower rpms for fun around town driving without rapping the rpms up to enjoy the power. I have a 2,800 rpms stall converter but I don't know if it's lock up or non lock up I can't remember the pros and cons of each but I want low rpm highway driving with the 8.8 rear end with a 373 gear. Now I don't know what exhaust to run if my current headers wont work with AFR head port shapes, and / or my headers wont fit around an AOD. Maybe I want a engine / cam combo that makes good power from 1000-6000 rpms and no stall converter just a stock torque converter. I don't know what to do my Stang is becoming a frustrating puzzle. Any suggestions ? I don't want to go through all the trouble and spend all the money and the car not be right for what I want.

 

If it is the stock block and 3.00 crank, then yes its a 302. It's been a few years since 91 though, no telling what was in it.

I went custom b/c I'm not smart enough to figure it out. Gave Ed my engine specs, auto tranny and gear ratio. Comes back with the grind that works best for me. It was worth the few extra bucks to know I got the exact cam for my parts and driving habits. You may also have to get new springs, depending on the cam you get and your current spring specs.

I waited to get my stall till after I got my cam and sent the cam specs to my tranny guy. Phoenix Transmissions in Weatherford, TX. Great guy, Greg Ducato. Was given his name by a buddy of mine, but if you Google him, he's written a few articles for magazines, really knows his stuff. I got a 9.5 lockup with a 3400 stall. Here is a link where you can read about the different types of converters. The 9.5 lockup is considered a hybrid converter, like having your cake and eating it too. Nice high flash stall speed for off the line and then locks up for cruising speeds.

And no, I don't think the 185's are too big. Right cam, intake and stall with the 3.73 gears should give you plenty of N/A fun.

 

The only cam for a Ford is obviously...

 

B cam lol yeah I've seen that before.

What would be the minimum essentials to reassemble this engine inlike new condition ? I don't have to bore it and get new pistons just to freshen it up right ?

 

My understanding is these are ford 1989 stock pistons. By the looks of the piston top, I suspect the compression ratio will be higher than 9:1 with 58cc chambers. You need to check everything. I would pop the pistons out and measure the cylinder bores with an inside mic. CC the cylinder head chamber volume.

 

My understanding is these are ford 1989 stock pistons. By the looks of the piston top, I suspect the compression ratio will be higher than 9:1 with 58cc chambers. You need to check everything. I would pop the pistons out and measure the cylinder bores with an inside mic. CC the cylinder head chamber volume.

actually that would be a good thing to have higher compression, but the engine previously had a 2.1L Kenne Bell supercharger on it so he said it was 9:1.

this is the torque / stall converter I have...
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HUP-51-25/

will a non lock up kill any gas mileage and cause high highway driving rpm's ?

also will I be able to use my current headers with the AFR heads ? It appears that my headers are rectangular and the AFR heads exhaust ports are square, but the headers the AFR heads came with appear to have rectangular primary tubes also. I noticed the rectangular gasket overlaps the head ports top and bottom. Is that worth porting the AFR heads there ?

 

With a stock bore and stroke the piston would need -10cc volume with 58cc chambers.

 

I noticed all of my rods and rod caps are stamped numbered on the bottom from 1-8. They dont come that way right ? I assume that has to mean this shortblcok has been taken apart and numbered for reassembly ? Is there any advantage to bother with balancing a stock rotating assembly in an 400-450hp engine ?

 

Take a rag with some lacquer thinner and rub that top edge. You just might have a build up of carbon deposits. Thinner will take it right off.

 

OK I cleaned some of that buildup off and there is still a very slight ridge there. I can barely feel it with my fingernail. Wouldn't that ridge be gone if the cylinders were bored out ? What about just honed for a fresh ring job ??

Do any stock roller pistons come flycut from the factory ? Maybe these stock forged pistons were only removed to fly cut them ??

 

so for a custom cam shaft for this build should I only be talking to Ed Curtis with FTI ? Who else is sugested ? Obviously I want the best performing cam for this set up.

 

well this is terrible. I just noticed the factory flycut pistons have little dings in the edges of the flycuts that match little clean marks on the intake valves of the AFR heads. Apparently the factory flycut is not big enough for the AFR 185 heads. The seller has offered to fix the AFR heads or trade them a set of Twisted Wedge 170's. He said they have canted valves so the heads are designed to work with stock 302 shortblocks. Thw TW's have 64cc chambers vs the AFR's 58cc chambers.

So for a 302 shold I have him fix the AFR heads with 58cc chambers or
trade for the TW 170's with 64cc chambers ?

I am hoping for a decent compression and big torque. I'll get a custom cam but want it all to work right with the stock flycut forged TRW pistons.

 

Stock flat top pistons and inline heads with 2.02" intake valves do not mix as you have sorely found out. There seems to be a lot that isn't correct about this build including what the original seller told you. I personally would tear it down and make sure it goes back together properly. He obviously did not know enough to check piston to valve clearance so who knows what else is wrong.

TW heads aren't canted; the intake valve is rotate towards the center of the cylinder to unshroud it from the cylinder wall. Even though you could probably get by with the stock pistons and the TW heads, if you ever step up in cam size you may need to flycut the pistons for the TW valve pattern in the future. Personally, I'd stick with the AFR's and replace the stock pistons with a set of aftermarket hypereutectic pistons. If the engine was worn enough to merit a ring swap it may need bored as well.

You need to get the bottom end sorted out first then worry about your top end. I'd keep the AFR heads, install a high rise dual plane intake (Weiand Stealth, Edelbrock RPM or Air Gap) and get a custom camshaft. I had good luck with FTI and Ed was good to work with. Their cam card they send out with the camshaft is a joke but enough information for most people. Any questions I had were answered quickly. I've had this discussion with BuckeyeDemon before about FTI and its too bad that Ed did not provide as good of service to him as he did me. I know others have had good luck with him and he knows AFR heads very well. Bullet Cams would be another to talk to.

 

how do you fix a set of AFR heads so the valves don't hit the pistons?

be careful honing those bores (especially if the previous owner only did a hone to remove the ridge). if you do that too much the bore will be too large and you can get piston scuffing/slap.

what's the bore currently measure? don't measure it at the top/ridge. measure it at a few different points. it will be easy to tell if it's been bored.

i'm not an FTI fan.

 

i'm not an FTI fan.

why is that ?

here is the cam card info they sent me....

Type of Camshaft Requested: Hydraulic Flat Tappet [] - Solid Flat Tappet [] - Hydraulic Roller [] - Solid Roller []
Vehicle Make - Body Style:
Vehicle Weight With Driver:
Goals and Usage:
Engine Details

Make of Engine: Deck Height:
Cubic Inches: Bore and Stroke: [ ] x [ ]
Compression: Piston Type:
Rod Length: Rod Type:
RPM Range Desired:
Cylinder Head Details

Manufacturer: Part Number:
Ported or Stock: If ported, by whom:
Intake Valve Size: [ ] Exhaust Valve Size: [ ]
Intake Port Volume: [ ] Exhaust Port Volume: [ ]
Combustion Chamber Size:
Flow Figures (.100" through .700")
Intake Exhaust
.200 - -
.300 - -
.400 - -
.500 - -
.550 - -
.600 - -
.650 - -
.700 - -
Valve Spring Information

Manufacturer: Part Number:
Closed: [ ] Open: [ ] Rate: [ ]#/inch
Rocker Arm Ratio:
Induction Details

Intake Manifold Type: Stock or Ported:
Throttle Body - Carb Size: Stock or Ported:
Exhaust Details

Manifolds [ ] Shorty [ ] Mid-Length [ ] Long Tube [ ]
Primary Size: Collector Size:
H or X-Pipe: Exhaust System Diameter:
Type of Muffler: Full Exhaust [ ] Dumps [ ]
Transmission Details

Manual [ ] Clutch Type:
Automatic [ ] Converter Stall:
Transmission Gear Ratios:
1st: 2nd: 3rd: 4th: 5th: 6th:
Drivetrain Details

Rear Gear Ratio:
Rear Tire Size:
Diameter: Width:
Power Adder Type

Nitrous: HP Level:
Turbo: A/R:
Supercharger: CFM:
Previous Camshaft Manufacturer:
Specs Intake Exhaust
Lobe Lift: - -
Duration @ .006” - -
Duration @ .050” - -
Duration @ .200” - -
Lobe Separation: Intake Centerline:
Engine Management System:
Special Issues:

 

Yes, what you have is a stock forged piston. Sounds like it's not bored over and was just re-ringed.

Yes, you will get slightly worse gas mileage and higher transmission temperatures without a lockup converter. Honestly, my lockup converter runs too cool on the highway-it barely gets over 130 degrees. But all converters were non lock up for decades and they survived just fine without the better, heat handling synthetics of todays tranny fluid.

What's he going to do to fix the AFR heads??

If you're worried about not having high compression, you can get the TW heads and have them milled down some to decrease the cc's of the head. You should be able to find out your compression since you know your piston and you know it isn't bored over. Find some of those good compression calculators online and input all the information and that will get you pretty close. The higher the compression you have, the larger the cam a designer can make for you.

Chaz

 

BTW, you can get a cheapo dial bore indicator to check cylinder wall width at any old hobby lobby for cheap, since you only need one that goes to .01, but most go to .001 and the expensive ones goes to .0001 (for measuring bearing clearances). That's if you still don't believe its not .030 over.

But I've seen those piston numbers before out of a factory block that me and another VMFer took apart a couple months ago.

 

With 500 miles on the engine there would be no ridge on the top of the cylinder and should be hone marks at the bottom of the cylinder. If the valves hit the piston, I would think the valves would be bent. Put some modeling clay on the piston, assemble the head, lifters rockers with the cam of your choice and find out what the V to P clearance. Find out your compression ratio via measuring the piston and cc the head. I would disassemble the block and measure everything. If you can't do the measurement and determine where you are, take it to a reputable engine rebuilder and pay him to measure everything and mock up the heads and find your piston to valve clearance. Don't assume anything or you will be sorry. Alan

 

Bullet Cams
Howards Cams
Jones Cams
FTI

I'm sure there are others, call around (except for FTI, strictly email) and see what they can do for you. You are going to have to get your head situation figured out though...maybe one of them can help before you get too far down the road and wish you would have went the other direction...

 

I guess the previous owner re ringed it ? The rods and rod caps are numbered ?? Did a 91 come with these forged factory fly cut pistons ?

the seller told me he would help me get the pistons fly cut larger and replace any bent valves if they are bent so I think I'll keep the AFR heads.

An engine builder should be able to determine the exact compression ratio right ? and be sure the rings are in good shape ? I assume I'll also need that info to have a cam made.

My local performace shop says I should still go with the AFR 185's and he beleived the intake valves hit the stock pistons even thoguh they are fly cut becasue the EFI cam it had in it had almost 550 lift and big valves in the AFR heads. I assume my next cam will need a 550 lift or so also so I hear theres a cutter that can be installed in the head that can cut the fly cuts a tad larger. I e-mailed Ed Curtis about a cam does anyone else have a custom cam maker recommendation ?

I'll have everything professionaly checked out before I put this all back together.

this is the most damage to a piston of the 8
and below that is the mark on the valve that made that dent in the piston. It just looks like a mark in the carbon deposits could it be OK ? (Ill still have it checked)

 

Go to ford muscle.com and read some of the tech articles in the archives. There are some good articles in the fundamentals folder. The piston to valve clearance in your engine with the AFR 185 heads, pistons and cam Is way wrong. It unbelievable that someone would set a engine up like this. "Minimum clearances between the valve and piston should be 0.080" on the intake valve, and 0.100" on the exhaust valve. Alan

 

would I be leaving any considerable amount of power on the table by limiting my cam specs by keeping the stock 302 pistons ? I could just fly cut the stock forged pistons more and get a cam that will work or could I get a different piston that would allow me to run more cam to make bigger power ? Keep in mind this will be a street car anyway with a AOD and a stall converter. I might be willing to get a higher stall speed if it would make a big difference in what I can do with the engine.

 

yes, It depends, The pistons may not be able to be fly cut for a structural realsons. You may consider throwing the pistons in the trash.

 

I'm not saying he should (this is just for my own education), but could you just measure PTV and order new (shorter) push rods, allowing that it didn't affect rocker arm geometry?

 

Shortening the pushrod length is only going to throw off the geometry of the rocker arm; its not going to shorten the lift. The lift is controlled by the cam lobe and the rocker arm ratio. Pushrod length needs to be what it needs to be. There is a sweet spot for the pushrod length for the geometry to be correct so that rocker produces the smallest amount of "sweep" or travel across the top of the valve stem. A perfect length of pushrod with the perfect rocker arm geometry will actual produce no travel across the top of the valve stem by the rocker arm but this is only theoretically.

 

I went with a Cam from FTI with the exact same combo you have and could not be happier. Car is a blast to drive with 3.50 gears!

 

a 306 with AFR 185's ? what pistons are you running ? Any dyno numbers ? Are you manual or auto trans ?

 

Here is a great article from MM&FF comparring AFR 165's to AFR 185's on a stock 302. Looks like the 185's outshine the 165's all over the power band (even down low) with different cams, and different intakes. This gives me hope for my build !!! One combo tested shows a peak torque of 398ftlbs, and another combo shows a peak hp of 455hp @ 6,100rpms with the 185's. The only fine print I found in the testing was that the 185's were milled down to create a 54cc chamber making less than a half a point higher compression whereas the 165's were still 58cc chambers.

Cam's used:
Comp XE 282 Lift .565in / 575ex Duration 232in / 240ex Lobe center 112
Comp XE 266 Lift .544in / 555ex Duration 216in / 224ex Lobe center 112
Intakes used:
Performer RPM
Victor Jr
carb 650cfm Speed Demon
Spacer ?? Wilson 2in open (is this referring to between the carb and the intake manifold ? Would that be the same or better than a high rise intake ?)

read here for the test results

AFR 165 cc vs AFR 185 cc Aluminum Cylinder Heads

those are carb cams right ? and how did they get the 185's to work with the stock pistons ? Can I get my pistons fly cut larger with the rods still on them, or do the rods also have to be removed from the piston to cut them ?
I want a more streetable engine with the power coming on at the lower rpms. I think I'll look for a cam / intake combo that will do that so I can used my 2,500 rpm stall converter and go.

 

well I just dropped off all of my engine parts after disassembling the engine over the weekend. Looks like it will need to be bored after all. Since I have to get new pistons I'll bump the compression to 10:1 maybe 10:5:1.

My builder wants to make his own custom grind cam that will be between the two below with a 110 lobe center he says will help the carbed engine to reduce some of the bumpty bump and accelerate smooter. He also wanted to go with a duration between the below two cam selections for good low end power.

Comp XE 282 Lift .565in / 575ex Duration 232in / 240ex Lobe center 112
Comp XE 266 Lift .544in / 555ex Duration 216in / 224ex Lobe center 112

I also talked about getting a high volume Ford Racing oil pump and use my regular oil pan. Any concerns it would suck a regulat volume pan dry ?

Lastly I talked to him about balancing the rotating assembly and using my AOD flywheel, and stock balancer ? Sound possible I don't really understand the balancing ???

wish me luck !!!!!

 

I would definitely double check on the HV oil pump and the stock pan...seems like I heard that is not the best combination. I have the 7 qt canton and a stock pump/shaft, trying to decide if I should move up to a HV. From what I have read before, the stock should be plenty for a street car that won't spend that much of its time in the high rpm range, but then some guys just like the extra insurance. I think it can cause a little more stress overall. I'm still learning though, so who knows.

 

Cool thanks. I talked to your stall converter guy he was very informative. Great customer service ! I think I'll stick with my non lock up 2,500 rpm stall for what I want my engine to do. I'm going to shoot for more low end power and still pull decent to 6k rpms.

hey can you plug this cam into your desktop dyno ?
Comp XE 266 Lift .544in / 555ex Duration 216in / 224ex Lobe center 112
Lobe center will actually be 110 if that makes any difference in power
306cu
10:1 & 10:5:1 compression
with AFR 185 heads
1.6roller rocker
Performer RPM air gap intake
Edelbrock 650cfm carb
longtube headers

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

No problem, I will enter it later tonight. Trading texts right now with a guy for a 1966 fastback project...we shall see if anything comes about it. Can't see the car in person which makes it difficult.

Yeah, the stall is a big factor in an automatic, you want to get it right. Cam, transmission and gears are all important. Mine is going to have a lot of torque and the 3400-3600 stall fits my build...I didn't really have any input, gave Greg my parts list and he said this is what you need.

I also asked two different people, FTI and my engine builder, both told me to use a stock oil pump...but we all not what opinions are like...everyone has one.