I have always been told that the borrowed time mark for a stock block 302 was 475. I wouldn't expect it to hold much more than that for any amount of time. Then there will always be stories of guys splitting blocks with HP in the 3's and those that have 500 passes on a 600hp stock block.

I imagine my stroker have somewhere in the low 4's but if I was to go any more than that I would have gone with a Dart block.

 

I have always been told that the borrowed time mark for a stock block 302 was 475. I wouldn't expect it to hold much more than that for any amount of time. Then there will always be stories of guys splitting blocks with HP in the 3's and those that have 500 passes on a 600hp stock block?......".

That's about the general consensus. Over 450 to 500 horsepower and sooner or later the block will pull apart at the lifter valley.

Z

 

I dont know where the "truck" blocks are made but im sure Ive heard that the Lincoln 302's were made in Cleaveland and they had a "stronger mix," more nickel me thinks. Kind of like the old "Hecho en Mexico" blocks.

 

A few years ago a friend got close to 1000 HP with a pick and pull 460 from a truck. It was carbed and big big shot of nitrous. It was solid for a full season in a stripped out fox body.

 

My 92 block is making over 600hp. That was on the dyno and only a few times( I usually don't push it that hard). I know it will split sooner or later. I have the main girdle,valley girdle,forges crank,rods pistons etc. The only thing girdles do is keep everything in a nice pile when it does split.

 

I subscribe to car craft magazine, as well as of course eat sleep and breathe anything classic car related.

I see in car craft some of these guys getting 1,000 hp with a junkyard 302 and twin turbos.

Aye, Laddie. An you still believe everything ye read?

How is this possible? I know there changing out the heads and top end but I've heard of the bottom end being a stock truck engine.

When you're compressing the mixture to a few atmospheres anything is possible.

How can you tell what an engines limit is?

RIGHT before it goes 'BOOM".

How far can you push a stock bottom end 302? Or even a production block with forged internals?

See above.

How can you tell if the motor can handle it?

If it doesn't, it couldn't.

How can you know an engines rpm redline after mods like this?

Get one of them "Memory tachs" and press the button.

I can understand a Dart block with forged internals etc... But I would really like to know how to tell a production small blocks hp and torque limit. For starters I wouldn't even think about boosting a stock bottom end like that, maybe a good stroker set up and heads with a shot of nitrous, but... trying to get 1000hp?!?

Thanks

LOL. The rotating assembly, when properly assembled and balanced, isn't as much of a problem as the block casting itself on 5.0's. Nasty applications of NO2 and forced inductions often exceed the blocks ability to retain the crankshaft and split it wide open. I've seen stock smallblock cranks spin 8,000+ rpm in 400+ hp motors over and over again.

A good visual inspection of the block will give you an idea of whether it will be strong enough. A magnafluxing will produce evidence of any defects that could potentially turn into big problems.

The fact is, if you have spare change (like the magazines do) and pick up a dozen JY motors, chances are that half will blow up right away, a few will blow up before you really want them to, and a few might make at least one, and maybe a few successful passes on the dyno. After they make that 1,000 hp pull, they probably won't make too many more. LOL.

 

Wasn't this on a 351W? I'm not nitpicking, but clarifying. Sure the rods are still junk, but that is more rpm related than boost related (as far as detonation is in check). And they did change the cam and heads. The article that comes to my mind was using a Lightning 351W roller block. Duttweiler used to say the best budget sbf answer was to ditch the 302 block and use an OEM 351 upto about 900hp. I'd never go much over 500hp on stock rods, but that wouldn't be sensational. I'm not sure who sticks 11R heads on a used short block, but again its I think for the point: You don't need exotic parts to make a 1000hp, just a well thought out plan. Making it live, requires good parts. As another member posted this week and holds here too: Fast, Cheap, Dependable - choose two.

 

Yea I wasn't sure which one it was, 302 or 351w.

I'm just trying to figure how these blocks don't split right away

It almost seems like it's push at your own risk? It's either gonna break or stay together.

Any more input? This interests me

 

Big difference between a 351w and a 302. On a 302 the block is a weak link. On a 351w the block itself is not a weak link. Stuff can move around and cause other failures but it's far less likely to just break in half suddenly far below the limits of everything else in the shortblock.

There's other factors at play as well. The statement "horsepower is horsepower is horsepower," as far as how it effects parts, would be a false statement (if anyone ever said it, which they probably did). What is harder on a block, 1000hp, 6000rpms, 15psi, internal balance -OR- 500hp, 8000rpms, naturally aspirated, 50oz/28oz imbalance? Just an abstract example but it illustrates my point a bit. My guess is you could build an internally balanced 302, turn up the boost at lower RPMs and live longer than the next guy who is cranking the RPMs to make the same power. But I do think a Dart block would be the way to go if you're spending that much money and going to that effort in 8.2" package.

 

At Engines by Ford - Blaine's Motor Supply s website I noticed that the only 351's they have are noted as "Lightening Series" :shrug:
Are these the same as used in a few years of the Cobra?
It could be that a slight increase in strength created an exponentially increase in durability. They knew the Lightening Truck was going to be abused even in their stock configuration so the parts were beefed up a bit and then the formula was used in more than those exact vehicles for mass production reasons. They may be a JY secret gems to be had.

 

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in what somebody says about them when they don't spell "Lightning" correctly. Twice.
In the 1994 model year all 5.8/351W engines were "roller camshaft" engines. The engine block casting starts with "F4TE-" The ones used in regular trucks and vans had roller cams and "E7TE" heads. The Lightning engines used iron GT40 heads and regular flat tappet cams. Basically you can swap parts from a one ton Econoline van engine and a Lightning engine and turn one into the other. Thus you could build as many Lightning engines as you wanted theoretically. Those heads are getting a little harder to come by though.
I just buy the regular F4TE 5.8 engines. I like aftermarket aluminum heads better than GT40's anyway.

 

I just buy the regular F4TE 5.8 engines.

Local salvage yards or internet supplier?

 

My comment about the mfg process was meant to be as a question. Jeeez. Lose an edit button and the spelling notsies come out
Plz, don't stop there and tell us why they are referred to as lightning series engines?
Why are there 2 sets; '93-'96 and '94-'97?
Are you saying the cams/lifters between the two blocks are interchangable?
And WTF does EFU mean? :_

 

Lose an edit button and the spelling notsies come out

I really do apologize, but I can't resist... Nazis

This was meant in good fun.

 

May someone please post link to said article?

Anyway after looking into information on my '89 5.0 I found out that the 5.0 HO's had forged Pistons & rods in them from I believe '86-'92 in which they started putting hypereutectic Pistons in starting in '93. However due to the strength of these block's I was always told that they would split in the 600hp range. I always read keeping the HP below 600 & the RPM's below 7K was the way to keep these blocks alive. As for the 351's/5.8's I always assumed they were in the same category as the 5.0 HO's & never really looked into them so I guess that I need to do some more research.
Someone mentioned a 460 pushing 1000hp & that doesn't surprise me a bit as there's a guy on YouTube that build N/A Boss 429's producing 1000hp.
Someone else mentioned the Lincoln blocks are tougher like the "Mexican" blocks? This wouldn't surprise me to much as the Lincoln's seem to get good stuff (look at the Navigator's that got the 5.4 DOHC's). This is something I'd be interested in as my pops is running a Mexican block in his '68 & I've seen this motor take some abuse. My 5.0 has over 160k on it & has been driven hard so it's in need of a rebuild & if the Lincoln blocks are tougher then I might be looking into a swap.

 

Maybe my 67 Fastback got really smashed up with my Dart 427W still in it and they put it in the junkyard

 

If you want to reliably (relative) max out an OEM 8.2" block I'd recommend a stud girdle, internal balance, and make your last 100-200hp with nitrous instead of RPM.

The intended use is also important. Are you a competition guy building 1-2 engines a year anyway? Or are you building a cruiser where you intend your next engine to be your last?

 

Ford chose not to use roller lifters on Lightning engines but it's the same basic engine. Many Lightning owners have chosen to swap in a roller cam set since there are now so many roller grinds available. (There didn't used to be)
E=Econoline. F=F-Series (F150. etc). I don't know "U", maybe heavy truck or industrial?
A local engine "core" supplier wants about $400 for a bad/damaged 5.8 engine. I pulled and bought my last F4TE out of a 1996 E250 van here.
Charlotte NC-Used auto parts without digging through salvage yards - Pull-A-Part
I paid about $125. I was going to tear it down and do fun stuff with it but I found it to be in such good condition I chose instead to swap it into my 5.0 EFI F150 as an upgrade. Where it has made me quite happy so far. I still have a fresh rebuilt F4TE that has a cracked cylinder which is what I wanted the truck's engine for to start with. So I need to get around to going up there and pulling another one sometime.

 

I think the LS guys are getting 1000 HP with turbos and the iron truck blocks, for less than 1K from the yard.

 

Yeah, as Beau states, the intent of the majority of the stories I have seen and heard about where they are building "junkyard" engines is for low cost and relaibility is not really a concern. It is just one of the things some people do, they are contrarian and just out to prove they can do something others say can't be done.

I found a very nice 5.0 in a junkyard in a wrecked Linc Mark VII LSC. The vehicle was very clean and low miles. I could have purchased the complete eng for $250 bucks. I didn't have a place to store it and no project for the eng so I let it go.

It would have been a nice "junkyard" engine to build.

 

All magazine article are 100% accurate. That's da truf!

 

Well... did you know that they can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true.

 

Everything you read on the internet (car magazines), can be taken as fact.
-Abraham Lincoln

sorry couldn't resist

 

I think the earlier 5.0 blocks were a bit wimpier. Usually pushed the
customers into like a 6010-A4 "boss 302" block if we could.......
No hp numbers on those.
There was a 351 block too (A4 maybe?) that was a pricey item.
Don't recall the absolute hp figure. We did have one of the first ones
sold and spent over a month arguing with FMS about warranty
cuz an oil passageway wasn't completely machined and it created
a near disaster on the engine dyno.

 

For a real world event, my 331 (5.0 based) supercharged motor split at 585fwhp (435rwhp).
Ran great under non boost throttle, then would collapse under boost. Dis assembly revealed a lifter valley crack.

 

The first 2 or mabe it was 3 years of the 351W were the strongest then Ford took some metal out of the mains. Structuraly they didint change after that except going roller.
302s were the same up untill 78. They reduced cylinder wall thicness and took weight out of the mains that had been added years back when the engines started failing going from 289 to 302. Reason was by 78 with emmisions and all they thougt the SBF would never produce much power again.
Somwere in the early 90s they did change the wall thickness in the 302 bores. The inner core was revised to sort of a square shapearound the cylinder. That though was only to keep the bores moe cylindrical as they started burning oil too soon. Guessing they were also boring and honing them too fast so it was also to bore more engines per hour. They never added materal back in the mains.

 

A FELOW BOATER runnng a ski drag boat dual turbo 460 jet drive. He used to beat the piss out of just about everybody on the lake. He would pick up any 460 he could find in any old vehicle some times 100. 00 for a car wagon whatever. He would toss it in his boat with the turbos mabe he would even go through an engine or two mabe 3 a season. A 100 200 doller motor beating a similar boat with a 40,000 dollar motor dual quad blower motors and such.

Guy that I used to port heads with started building an engine for a hot rod article. Half built we were informed we didnt spend enough money for adds a month or in a year to be concidered for a tec article. Began thinking whoevers product in a test won if they spent the most in adds

 

Guy that I used to port heads with started building an engine for a hot rod article. Half built we were informed we didnt spend enough money for adds a month or in a year to be concidered for a tec article. Began thinking whoevers product in a test won if they spent the most in adds

yup:thumbsdown:

 

We're talking about junkyard engines making big power (which is potentially reality), no need to get too far into the validity or accuracy of something I read while I am ****ting. Magazines are fun. Like the internet. I think we're all smart enough not to live and die by either.

 

Years ago I was at the drag strip. The announcer started making a big squawk on the PA about the next race. Vehicle was a rear engine dragster but not with the typical Kieth Black hemi, just a small block chevy with a really big blower. The announcer went on to say that this guy usually gets 2-3 passes out of an engine before it lets go, so they made it perfectly clear that pistons, crankshafts etc. would be flying shortly.

Everyone moved back from the staging area about an extra 75' and the fun began. First pass everything was okay, he even gave the big hemi in the other lane a run for his money. Second pass it let go at the line on the launch. It was a good thing no one was near because there were big parts engulfed in flames flying in every direction. I guess that block only lasted one pass;-)

 

Mexican blocks have stronger main caps, just like the hipo 289's. So they should be simular strength wise. How much hp they can hold? I dunno.